New thoughts on Pine safety

[JediMasterThrash]

I thought I would share this info with LHC as well. It's mostly info from other people, I've just conglomerated it into a post to help spread the information.As you know, I'm always one to challenge long-held-crabbing-beliefs (rust, stresscoat, salt, etc). So of course I was intrigued at the first nothing that maybe there's more to pine than we've been told. I think we should always remember that quantity or concentration is the most important factor. It is usually an oversimplification to say that a particular chemical or element is inherently good or bad. Copper and zinc are two I've talked about before. They are toxic in high quanitities, but are a necessary element for all life in small quantities. I have received the following information from Tammy (Crabbage Patch), Bob (ELHC), and Suebee (Experienced member) in my quest for more info (paraphrased): Because pine trees can grow in most any conditions they are often found along the shore lines. Bob has seen crabs in their natural habitat in over 60 countries, and he often found them climbing in and hanging out in pine trees. They eat the pine needles, which are high in Vitamin C. Often the leaf litter under the pine trees has some bark, but mostly pine cones and needles, and the pine cones are covered with sap aka pine resin. The crabs often are found eating pine cones. Sue has offered them in her tank along with moss that had needles in it. Tammy of the HCP has given this statement and said it was ok to quote her: " I'm not quite sure where the thought that 'moss that comes from a coniferous forest is harmful to hermit crabs' comes from... I've been giving the beaked moss to my crabs for years and they eat it down to practically nothing and absolutely love it!" Sue reminds us that pine essential oil is very concentrated, as are all essential oils. It would take many pine trees to come up with a very small amount of pine oil. As an herbalist i would never sugest any one use any kinds of essential oils on pets; the concentration will burn skin. It takes a field of lavender to make 8 oz of lavender essential oil. She agrees that the concentration is the key to it being used as a bug killer. On the other hand a less contentrated amount may still be a repellent, but not a killer. She doesn't know if the crabs molt among bark of the pine trees, however she does know that they molt below pine bark deep within the compost of the pine trees. This would be bark and needles with pine cones, decomposed and mixed among soil and worm castings. Worms are a big part of the wild diet along with the castings. As well as Tammy, Sue has used beaked moss often in her tank and offered pine cones, as well as using a pine wood chair as decoration. I too have before (inadvertantly at the time) used pine half-logs in my tank. The crabs loved them, never showing any repulsion, and I did not note any ill effects. Sue has also pointed out, and I've verified on several websites, that moss destined for craft stores is treated with pesticides. Despite craft stores being one of our favorite places to buy crabitat supplies on the cheap, moss is one of those items that should only be bought where sold explicitely for animals, and not for crafts.

[Nicole]

Thank you for sharing this JMT. Do you know if any one species would be more predisposed to pine exposure than another species or if this would apply to all the crabs? I have always worried when finding suspect wood pieces and such in the terrarium moss that I buy for the crabs - maybe I will worry less now. Do you think that tank size and aeration would make a difference as to how the crabs are affected by the pine smell? I know that the half-log that you mentioned using I once had as well and it really smelled strongly in the tank, which made me remove even before finding out it was pine.

[Crabby Abby]

Myth busters! I love it.JMT I can't tell you how much I appreciate that you accept nothing without evidence. Thank you for possessing such an inquisitive trait and for such a detailed finding.We bought a very large, freshly cut Christmas tree one year that wound up, because of it's size, not only in the same room as my 2 crab tanks but right beside the largest one. If that didn't stress me enough, leaving the room for a bit and returning I realized what an overpowering pine scent it put off (or maybe that's because I'm not fond of pine scents myself) and each morning I woke filled with dread to check my tank for passings. I couldn't do food and water changes fast enough but for those wondering, my crabs suffered no adverse effects.Crabs modified gills are said to be similar to that of the lungs of birds in that the odors they breathe are more concentrated for them than for people and other animals. Is that another myth do you know, like fragranced candles (which I personally don't believe to be harmful but won't risk using just in case I'm wrong), etc. I'm referring to anything other than the scents of chemicals like cleansers, etc. quote:Do you know if any one species would be more predisposed to pine exposure than another species or if this would apply to all the crabs? Excellent question, Nicole.

[KittyCaller]

I don't have a problem accepting that pine is perfectly safe in nature, and possibly even in the tank most of the time, but I had heard that the issue was really ventilation. The problem that a lot of small pets seem to have with it is that pine shavings would probably be fine if they were outside amongst them, but in the tank, those irritants are FAR more contained and don't vent nearly as well. While I also don't like to take things at face value, I have to admit that on the face of it, it does make sense. Have you found anything in your research that indicates this might be partly true? (Hope I'm making sense. If not, please say so and I'll try to rephrase)

[Crabber85]

I have always heard that hermitcrabs are like moths and are extremly sensitive to the resins and phenols that coniferous trees have which is why I have allways shyed away from anything from a coniferous tree in my crabitat.

[Guest]

Ive been using a pine half log since ive first purchased my hermit crabs almost a 8 months ago, and so far every thing has been fine (knock on wood), I've only lost 1 crab to PPS out 10. I did carve away all the bark from the half log and a fair amount of the wood underneath the bark, soaked it in salt water for a day and baked it before use just to be safe. Although i have had this particular half log for about 8 or more years now (maybe over time the wood has lost a lot of potency)The majority of the crabs sleep underneath the half log regularly and Ive even found some molting underneath the ground below the half log and one on the surface underneath the half log which makes a total of 7/9 successful molts with the other 2 currently molting (its all of their first molts with me and it was amazingly exciting to see a molter dig their way up) Either way, i firmly believe pine is safe to use, but it always pays off to just be extra careful and avoid anything that could be potentially hazardous.

[JediMasterThrash]

The modified gills take in particles that are dissolved in water (the moist lining of the gills). This is about 20x more efficient than taking in particles from the air (lungs).So it would depend on how well fragrances are dissolved in water.I would say you are correct that ventilation would play a big role. Having air flow would prevent any particular chemicals from building up over time.Pumping in extra air via humidifiers probably helps.

[Willow]

I have used moss with pine needles in it before. I didn't wory about it, and the crabbies are fine. Now, one problem is that some people are told to keep their crabs in pine shavings.....which is juct plain bad for them on many levels. So pine IS bad for them in that context, LOL. BUt I always figured that if somethign was bad for them they'd avoid it. And they love their moss.