Salt

All about freshwater & saltwater - dechlorinators, salt, water bowls, and pool construction & maintenance.
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burnin4Christ
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Salt

Post by burnin4Christ » Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:45 am

as some of you may know i am doing an informative speech on crabs and i was wondering if anyone could tell me why table salt is bad for them...i remember hearing once ot twice but i forget. thanks!


dbolack
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Re: Salt

Post by dbolack » Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:58 am

burnin4Christ wrote:as some of you may know i am doing an informative speech on crabs and i was wondering if anyone could tell me why table salt is bad for them...i remember hearing once ot twice but i forget. thanks!
The anti-caking agents in table salt.


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Post by Guest » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:11 pm

Iodine is in most table salts. The iodine is put into the salt to repel bugs, since bugs and crabs are similar the iodine has negative effects on the herms. table salt also does not have the other components that is in ocean salt.

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kgbenson
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Post by kgbenson » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:19 pm

Hermitcrazy wrote:Iodine is in most table salts. The iodine is put into the salt to repel bugs, since bugs and crabs are similar the iodine has negative effects on the herms. table salt also does not have the other components that is in ocean salt.
Iodine is put into salt as a supplement to prevent goiter and several other medical conditions throughout the world. If a salt is iodized in the US it is required by law to be clearly labeld as such.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodised_salt

Salt alone is not particularly attractive to "bugs".

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kgbenson
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Post by kgbenson » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:49 pm

Table salt (NaCl) is not inherently bad for crabs. Using iodized salt can expose the crabs to deleterious effects of large quantities of iodine, but the main problem is that they need other ions besides the Na+ and the Cl- provided by table salt in water. There is plenty of sodium in seawater - but there is also a host of other ions, CA++, Mg++ etc. Sodium and Chloride make up the lion share, but the others are very important (as in mission critical) to animals evolved to live in or around salt water.

http://www.palomar.edu/oceanography/salty_ocean.htm

So - is NaCl bad? No - but like anything, too much NaCl is bad. The lack of the other ions is also critically important.

Is iodine bad? Not in the right amounts. Decapods require it, as do most other animals. For most of the decapods studied, the levels in NSW are sufficient as a supplement to any absorbed from the food. A good salt mix will also provide this level - especially if it is designed for use in reef aquaria where marine hermits are prevelent. The question of how much to they require and how much is too much is tough to answer. I do not know if this has been determined in ceonobita but it has been worked out in some other decapods. For example:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/e56h465kj32127g1/


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Post by burnin4Christ » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:24 am

thanks guys! i just wanted to make sure i had everything correct.

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JediMasterThrash
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Post by JediMasterThrash » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:49 pm

Hmm, can't seem to find my old post anywhere. Here's a copy of it:
JediMasterThrash wrote: The "iodine in table salt" myth is something that's been with us on-line crabbers since the beginning of time, as far as I can tell. It was prevalent on all crab websites and care sheets, and I just copied it onto mine assuming it was fact, since in all the years I've been on-line, nobody has questioned it.

Until now, this thread was the first I heard of questioning the iodine in table salt. So I did some research.

As with all myths revolving around water (such as stress coat), this one started in reef aquarium circles. However, it has been disproved as a myth. Iodine is in fact necessary for crustaceans in order to molt, and it's found naturally in seaweed.

Some crab websites/care sheets are now specifying that it's the "man-made iodine" that is bad for crabs. The "man-made" iodine in table salt is Potassium Iodide (KI), which is actually one of the best ways to get I- ions. So that is a myth as well.

So I checked out the anti-caking agents. There is no primary source of information on anti-caking agents being bad for crustaceans. Every entry on a crab website is copied from another crab website, it's unclear who started that myth either.

I looked up all the common anti-caking agents in the ecotoxicity database, and none of them show up as harmful to crustaceans.

Best I can tell, table salt is actualy safe, (but you still shouldn't use it for making seawater, since it lacks other the trace minerals, and seawater contians a mixture of several different kinds of salt, not just NaCl, and it is this balance of different salts and trace minerals that is important to sea life, not NaCl alone.).

I'm very glad this was brought up, I've learned something today.

I should do a revision of the care sheets this year, since I have been doing it every 2 years, and the last time was in 2006. I'll definitely remove the table salt bit in the next revision.

-----------------------------

Just to clarify my stance, FYI, I've just identified that table salt is a myth, but I still won't say 100% whether it's good or bad yet. At the moment, I can't find any evidence that it's bad. But as I go with these things, I post it on a couple forums, and see if anyone can provide any primary sources of information on the subject.

So if no sources of information show up in the next few weeks proving that table salt is bad, then I'll call the myth debunked. But until then, it's still up in the air.

Every once in a while, you just gotta re-look at something you take for granted. It's a good exercise.

-----------------------------

It is true that table salt contains a lot of iodine. A lot even for human needs. It was added to prevent goiter for people who live in areas where the soil contains no iodine (so they wouldn't get it naturally from foods).
http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/question367.htm

Note that I'm not saying we should use switch to using table salt to make saltwater. Even if it "might" be safe, it would lack other minerals. I have a previous post that talks about how everything is harmful in big enough quantities. The question is about how much is too much.

Right now, the crab community is paranoid about table salt. We think that even a little bit added to crackers is enough to kill our hermits.

I just question that. If it turns out to be "safe", that would just mean that we don't need to avoid things that include salt like the plague.

Obviously everything is better when it's all-natural and organic. Any artificial preservatives and agents aren't going to be good, but as before, the question is always in the quantities.

A form of cyanide is actually used as an anti-caking agent for some foods. But before we cry out in terror, you have to understand that the quanity well below FDA food grade limits. I mean you can eat a piece of dirt and it's probably got radioactive isotopes and poisonous chemicals in it. But it's not going to kill you because everything is in trace quantities. The potassium in bananas has a high concentration of the K-14 radioactive isotope. But you don't hear too much about banana induced cancer.

---------------------------

Here's the list of anti-caking agents:

E500 Sodium bicarbonate
E535 Sodium ferrocyanide
E536 Potassium ferrocyanide
E538 Calcium ferrocyanide
E542 Bone phosphate
E550 Sodium silicate
E551 Silicon dioxide
E552 Calcium silicate
E553a Magnesium trisilicate
E553b Talcum powder
*E554 Sodium aluminosilicate
E555 Potassium aluminium silicate
E556 Calcium aluminosilicate
E558 Bentonite
E559 Aluminium silicate
E570 Stearic acid
E900 Polydimethylsiloxane
(List from wikipedia)

may have missed something, but from the information Ladybug posted, it doesn't appear the calcium silicate poses any health risk from its use as a food additive.

In fact, that OSHA website lists two studies:
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidel ... silicate/recognition.html
Quote:
Effects on Animals: No adverse effects of non-fibrous calcium silicate were identified. During a chronic inhalation study, rats were exposed...Over the 31 months of the experiment, no statistically significant adverse effects attributable to the calcium silicate were observed.


Quote:
Effects on Humans: No information was found in the literature on the health effects associated with exposure to synthetic calcium silicate. A manufacturer of calcium silicate reported that exposure may irritate the respiratory tract.


The only risk for calcium silicate is if it's in a dust-state, due to respiratory hazards associated with all fine dust particles (such as would happen if it was involved in a fire, or in a plant that processes calcium silicate in its pure form). And there are numerous substances that are safe until burned (and the resulting gasses become poisonous, but those gases are a result of chemical reactions with oxygen, and not the compound itself) or turned into airborne dust (due to respiratory problems). But the substances are safe in solid or liquid form.



And on to sodium and chloride, yes, NaCl contains sodium and chloride atoms, but it contains the chemical structure sodium chloride, which is not harmful, and is a chrystal lattice of Na+and Cl- ions. Chlorine gas is Cl2 (which is poisonous), which has completely different properties from Cl- (which is abundant in nature and necessary for life). And metallic sodium is Na (which is not poisonous, but is highly reactive with water), which has different properties from Na- dissolved in water (which again, is necessary for life, including "regulation of blood and body fluids, transmission of nerve impulses, heart activity, and certain metabolic functions".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium

And on top of that, The NaCl in table salt is the same NaCl that's disolved in sea water. In fact, sea water is 1.9% chlorine and 1.0% sodium by mass.



As an aside, I found this interesting article that shows that in order for plants to actually "live/thrive" in saltwater, a balance of different salts is required, and that our blood and seawater create this necessary balance.
http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/1/4/363.pdf



Also, I might have missed something again, but I don't see anything in the "Ocean Salt vs Table salt" article that demonstrates any adverse affects of potassium iodide.

In fact, sea water should have 390mg/L of potassium and 0.060 mg/L of iodide according to the Natural Sea Water (NSW) average values.
http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/seasal ... 12003b.htm
JMT.

Stuck-up, half-witted, scruffy-looking crab-herder since '92.

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suebee
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Post by suebee » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:51 pm

Table salt can also be purchased without iodine.
That doesnt mean i think you should use it for hermit crabs..
I dont think its unsafe and will kill them on food however.
I just wanted to bump this thread due to some of the questions regarding salt coming up lately.. I think this and the slime coat thread should some how be made so that we have easy access to them maybe a drop down over at the right would work? I dont know if it can be done but it sure is two items that come up often.
I buy from ELHC or HCP, I CANNOT RECEIVE PM MESSAGES SO EMAIL ME,anytime! suebeebuzz@me.com visit my Hermit Crab Dollar Store. Crabbing from aprox 1974- I own 12 Species,On Face Book-Susan Staff's Coenobita Research of New Jersey


rhemaangel

Post by rhemaangel » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:06 am

Pure Sodium Chloride can also be purchased for human consumption as well. We all know it as Kosher salt. In order to be certified Kosher, it will have absolutey NOTHING else added to it. It's easily available in the grocery stores, especially close to Passover/Easter. It can come in rock crystal form or in fine crystals.

I prefer to use it for boiling my crabbies' dishes & shells, etc. instead of the more expensive marine salts. Here in Perth, it costs about 1/20 of what the marine salt costs, so it's more economical for boiling/cleaning purposes.

(As an aside -- mixed with lemon juice to make a paste, it works WONDERS on stainless steel pots & sinks :D )

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Post by wodesorel » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:45 am

rhemaangel wrote:Pure Sodium Chloride can also be purchased for human consumption as well. We all know it as Kosher salt. In order to be certified Kosher, it will have absolutey NOTHING else added to it. It's easily available in the grocery stores, especially close to Passover/Easter. It can come in rock crystal form or in fine crystals.
Here Kosher salt is sold with anti-caking agents. My certified box of Morton in the kitchen has "yellow prussiate of soda" added.

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Post by suebee » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:05 am

Im pretty sure Kosher refers to the clean way in that it is prepared not always what is added.. I could be wrong. Thank goodness no evidence that anti-caking agents are harmful has been found so our crabs can be Jewish if they prefer to eat Kosher foods! Now would be the place to find a cute little crab wearing a Kippah cap.
I buy from ELHC or HCP, I CANNOT RECEIVE PM MESSAGES SO EMAIL ME,anytime! suebeebuzz@me.com visit my Hermit Crab Dollar Store. Crabbing from aprox 1974- I own 12 Species,On Face Book-Susan Staff's Coenobita Research of New Jersey


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Post by rhemaangel » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:26 am

Kosher certified just means that it's accpetable for comsumption.

The kind of Kosher salt I'm talking about is PURE and is what's used for kashering (aka brining) kosher meat products. You can also find it with the pickling supplies.

I would steer clear of ANYTHING that had YPS in it. it does have the potential to turn into CYANIDE!!!!!!! Interesting info when you google YPS. :shock: One page: http://csdouglas.multiply.com/journal/item/762

If you have access to a Kosher butcher/grocery store, you might try looking there.

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Post by suebee » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:52 am

rhemaangel, above read JMT's info about cyanide and YPs.. dont get to upset. some of the other sites will get you all worked up over nothing but info passed from one site to another. Nothing to back it up. Keith and JMT have info above that really relieves me of any fears.
I buy from ELHC or HCP, I CANNOT RECEIVE PM MESSAGES SO EMAIL ME,anytime! suebeebuzz@me.com visit my Hermit Crab Dollar Store. Crabbing from aprox 1974- I own 12 Species,On Face Book-Susan Staff's Coenobita Research of New Jersey


rhemaangel

Post by rhemaangel » Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:00 am

suebee wrote:rhemaangel, above read JMT's info about cyanide and YPs.. dont get to upset. some of the other sites will get you all worked up over nothing but info passed from one site to another. Nothing to back it up. Keith and JMT have info above that really relieves me of any fears.
Maybe so, for HUMANS. But we're talking about creatures that are thousands of times smaller than people, and any accumulation that would not harm us, COULD harm them.

And as an aside -- I was in my local shop yesterday getting new things for the big tank & we stopped by the hermit crab tanks. Hubby was amazed at the jumbos. LOL! He didn't realise they can get that big. Saldy, they sell the painted Krazy Krabs. But -- one of them had a STAR OF DAVID painted on it!!!! hehehe

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