Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Where we discuss the behavior of our hermit crabs, as in fights, pecking orders, shell swaps, etc. Please post all naked-crab posts in the Emergency forum.

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Re: Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Post by w h a l e b o n e » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:11 pm

wodesorel wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:10 pm
Something to consider about Jonathon and Kate is that Carol was a microbiologist, so she considered a lot of things that most people would never think of. Their tank was always kept pristine so as to avoid bacterial and fungal contamination, but by being allowed to roam the house they we're still exposed to everyday contagions. I truly believe that what she did allowed for them to have robust immune systems, which is part of why they survived so long. There were also only the two of them so there was no introduction of new hermit crab specific pathogens, with separations during molts so there could be no attacks, and an extremely varied diet including vitamin fortified items most would never dream of feeding (fish flakes and hotdogs) to make sure their nutrition was as complete as possible.
That's true. Honsetly she's a legend. I can't think things through that well :lol:


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Re: Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Post by w h a l e b o n e » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:13 pm

curlysister wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:08 pm
Whalebone - I think it does get easier to be patient over time. I have had my crabs for over 9 years, and it's easier and easier to wait out a molt. But I am a more casual owner than some - I seldom keep track of exactly when they go down, or exactly what their schedule is, and sometimes I only remember to change their food when I see it's moldy, LOL. I also am much more hands off now than I was at the start. I used to take them out of the tank occasionally. But now I only pick them up in order to move them if they are in my way for cleaning up or moving things around. I never take them out of the tank.
Oh my gosh I honestly need to set an alarm to remind myself to change the food! :lol: Yeah I think as the excitement dies down it probably helps. Also do you have a lot of crabs? I feel like it's a little more entertaining because then there's always someone doing something

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Re: Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Post by curlysister » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:03 pm

I only have two, Sonny and Cher. I keep them in my sewing room. Now that I have a Wyze cam, I do watch their antics more!
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." -Will Rogers


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Re: Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Post by w h a l e b o n e » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:26 pm

curlysister wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:03 pm
I only have two, Sonny and Cher. I keep them in my sewing room. Now that I have a Wyze cam, I do watch their antics more!
I would honestly love to get a wyze cam so I can spy on mine when I'm at school

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Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Post by Overmountain1 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:28 pm

I love handling my friendly crabs!!! Idk if you’ve seen me with my Princess girl yet. She’s the absolute best! I feel like the bigger the crab, the less threatened they feel and the more comfortable in general they get. Not all but most, it’s almost like stair steps from my tinies on up the size ladder- the tinies run. Always. And 2 of my Es act like the sand is on fire and they can’t get away fast enough! So for them I leave them be except as needed. I have 20 crabs currently, with 4 species and every size of PP. you could definitely say it’s addicting!! Currently I care for them in 5 tanks, but they’re getting consolidated in a couple weeks finally! Every species is different too. My Indo is coming around with me and being less shy, I handle my crabs once every couple months or so, I sorta rotate who I visit with in each tank and try to limit handling to once a week or so. This allows me to work thru the various tanks and crabs and lets us get to know one another better. I’m a rambler too haha! Anyway, here’s a shot of me cuddling my girl. This was all her, and she stayed there for a good 5 mins or so. She couldn’t be more gentle... my Es are wild and hard to handle so I rarely do- I’m mostly fine just watching their antics!! Let me tell you right now- if you really want stuff going on in the tank, day or night, and to be seriously entertained, try finding some Es!! I spend more time at their tank than anywhere cause they’re pretty much always busy. And if they’re not and I walk up, James or Big E comes running up to the ‘window’ saying hi and being unrepentant beggars!! Image Image
As shown; Princess, Mr EnDoh the Indo, my buddy James just before he swapped shells finally, then Ryder, and last we have Billy- also known as ghost crab for his perpetual ghostly hue! Welcome to the lovely addicting world of crabbing!!
ImageImageImageImageImage


Dave the Wondercrab~Pat~Maggie~ Billy~Pop~Corn~Ten~Sam~MissTeri~Tim~Gene~ Barry~Mr S~Princess + 5 Es + Mr EnDoh =my crabby clan!


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Re: Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Post by w h a l e b o n e » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:00 am

Overmountain1 wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:28 pm
I love handling my friendly crabs!!! Idk if you’ve seen me with my Princess girl yet. She’s the absolute best! I feel like the bigger the crab, the less threatened they feel and the more comfortable in general they get. Not all but most, it’s almost like stair steps from my tinies on up the size ladder- the tinies run. Always. And 2 of my Es act like the sand is on fire and they can’t get away fast enough! So for them I leave them be except as needed. I have 20 crabs currently, with 4 species and every size of PP. you could definitely say it’s addicting!! Currently I care for them in 5 tanks, but they’re getting consolidated in a couple weeks finally! Every species is different too. My Indo is coming around with me and being less shy, I handle my crabs once every couple months or so, I sorta rotate who I visit with in each tank and try to limit handling to once a week or so. This allows me to work thru the various tanks and crabs and lets us get to know one another better. I’m a rambler too haha! Anyway, here’s a shot of me cuddling my girl. This was all her, and she stayed there for a good 5 mins or so. She couldn’t be more gentle... my Es are wild and hard to handle so I rarely do- I’m mostly fine just watching their antics!! Let me tell you right now- if you really want stuff going on in the tank, day or night, and to be seriously entertained, try finding some Es!! I spend more time at their tank than anywhere cause they’re pretty much always busy. And if they’re not and I walk up, James or Big E comes running up to the ‘window’ saying hi and being unrepentant beggars!! Image Image
As shown; Princess, Mr EnDoh the Indo, my buddy James just before he swapped shells finally, then Ryder, and last we have Billy- also known as ghost crab for his perpetual ghostly hue! Welcome to the lovely addicting world of crabbing!!

Dave the Wondercrab~Pat~Maggie~ Billy~Pop~Corn~Ten~Sam~MissTeri~Tim~Gene~ Barry~Mr S~Princess + 5 Es + Mr EnDoh =my crabby clan!
Yeah I'm thinking Es look really fun. Obviously every crab is different, but I've heard in general they're active. Unfortunately all I can find are PPs in my local pet stores so far but one day. That's really fun! Also, good idea, so it still feels like you're handling your crabs often without the crabs feeling like they're being handled too much. I love all the different approaches people have!

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Re: Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Post by Nessiandnoah » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:53 am

I used to handle mine at first but then when I heard about how they are better hand off, I stopped :-/ not sure how they feel about it. How can you tell? They hide in their shell anytime I go to change their food, that tells me they are scared of me, but when I used to handle them...I would hold them in my hand til they came out of the shell and they would walk around my hand and stuff. But if I sat them on the ground they would walk away from me and try to hide somewhere so idk


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Re: Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Post by w h a l e b o n e » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:17 pm

Nessiandnoah wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:53 am
I used to handle mine at first but then when I heard about how they are better hand off, I stopped :-/ not sure how they feel about it. How can you tell? They hide in their shell anytime I go to change their food, that tells me they are scared of me, but when I used to handle them...I would hold them in my hand til they came out of the shell and they would walk around my hand and stuff. But if I sat them on the ground they would walk away from me and try to hide somewhere so idk
I can't tell all the way, because obviously I can't ask them how they feel and they don't communicate the same way humans or even mammals do. I just have to guess. I also don't know if maybe it's an initial response to a sudden movement or also I think their instinct when they're somewhere unfamiliar is to find a place to hide, much like some animals are attracted to dark spaces so they can hide. So yeah, maybe they are scared at first, and rightly so, it's biologically advantageous to do so in order to avoid predators.

I do also think that they can be conditioned, but it'd have to be done gently and nonintrusively. Kind of like how some photographers can get really close to animals because they came every day or whatever time period and the animals got used to them. I think even as humans we are afraid of the unknown, and a giant hand moving over you if you were a hermit crab would classify as such.

Back to the photographer thing, at first the birds and other animals flew away or ran off, but the photographers start out far away til the animals no longer see them as a threat and slowly get closer over time. So I think the crabs or at least some can get used to you over time, especially if you associate something positive with your interactions, like offering them food on your hand when they come out. If a photographer can get close and gain animals' trust by doing something neutral like just sitting there, then I definitely think a positive thing would greatly boost the chances. Mine seems to respond to my voice, idk I haven't had it that long. But I think the most important thing is to move at their pace and not force anything.


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Re: Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Post by w h a l e b o n e » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:26 pm

I also ready a study on how hermit crabs can retain memories of pain, so a hermie that was mistreated may not be as inclined to trusting, if at all. Also once again every crab and owner is unique, so I think it really is a case by case thing.

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Re: Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Post by aslansgirl89 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:16 pm

I stay kind of hands off, as I will get them out occasionally to let them explore a bucket with a climbing surface while I shower and I will occasionally let my female walk on my hands but not my male. My female is generally more chill when it comes to handling whereas the male freaks out. I have also noted that they show stress by flicking their side antennaes backwards so if I notice that behavior I will immediately put them back in the enclosure. Has anyone else ever noticed the antenna thing or is it just me?

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Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Post by Overmountain1 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:57 pm

aslansgirl89 wrote:I stay kind of hands off, as I will get them out occasionally to let them explore a bucket with a climbing surface while I shower and I will occasionally let my female walk on my hands but not my male. My female is generally more chill when it comes to handling whereas the male freaks out. I have also noted that they show stress by flicking their side antennaes backwards so if I notice that behavior I will immediately put them back in the enclosure. Has anyone else ever noticed the antenna thing or is it just me?

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Absolutely correct! They flick antennae back when they’re mad or agitated or whatever the crab equivalent is! I can note this in the Es more so bc they don’t have shells to pull into, so everything stays out in the open the entire time. But when they’re threatened.... you get an eyeless crab. Image I have better shots but it always cracks me up. (He loosened up like 2 seconds later...) Meet Big E, my largest one. Really original name I know. The e is for my hubby actually!
*edited to add that he was coming out of ISO; that is not his full time crabitat behind him!
Image

As far as the guys go- I think we all know when our crabs are threatened/scared and back off immediately, and that is a good thing. However, I feel like in my interacting with them that they have all benefitted from some handling, as they aren’t absolutely terrified when someone walks in the room. Conditioned is exactly the word I know. We can all adjust to almost anything- and so can many crabs. Even the shy ones. I feel like.... i feel like going ahead and encouraging your crabs to come out and visit you, even when they don’t, reinforced (to them) that we are not a threat or dangerous. *that is an opinion and by no means based on fact or long years of knowledge, just that I’ve had a couple of shy crabs turn it around and be if not totally fine, tolerant of being watched and just aren’t bothered anymore.
I know they won’t ever turn into my social butterfly like Princess. She almost never even startles! She’s so used to being around people- the previous owner had her for 5-6 years too, and all the crabs from him are friendly and unthreatened and healthy. (I believe there were 9 total crabs and all are this way, to various degrees. It took them just a few days to be totally comfortable with whatever, but that’s normal! He (previous owner) said he handled them about as often as I do from what I understand, so I do believe it helps them- even in transition from home to hone which is hard enough on the poor guys (and gals!) I believe it lessens a portion of the stress they experience going from one owner to another bc they at least know that people aren’t really a threat. Idk. It’s a shot in the dark kinda bc there isn’t any science to back it up. Hmmm. I wonder if someone here is talented and smart enough to take a poll and consolidate, to see who lands where in the handling crabs scale! Not it! I was thinking how cool it would be if there was a person with a group of crab owners, who kept track of this data from home to home. And to ALSO keep records of who has friendly crabs vs not as much, and then to see how they do in transition; whether or not their comfort with one human transfers universally or on a crab to crab basis... idk maybe I’m crazy and overthinking it all, but that would be even more informative in general. IMO...

Sorry so long! Didn’t mean to. Image


Dave the Wondercrab~Pat~Maggie~ Billy~Pop~Corn~Ten~Sam~MissTeri~Tim~Gene~ Barry~Mr S~Princess + 5 Es + Mr EnDoh =my crabby clan!


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Re: Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Post by w h a l e b o n e » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:00 pm

Overmountain1 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:57 pm

As far as the guys go- I think we all know when our crabs are threatened/scared and back off immediately, and that is a good thing. However, I feel like in my interacting with them that they have all benefitted from some handling, as they aren’t absolutely terrified when someone walks in the room. Conditioned is exactly the word I know. We can all adjust to almost anything- and so can many crabs. Even the shy ones. I feel like.... i feel like going ahead and encouraging your crabs to come out and visit you, even when they don’t, reinforced (to them) that we are not a threat or dangerous. *that is an opinion and by no means based on fact or long years of knowledge, just that I’ve had a couple of shy crabs turn it around and be if not totally fine, tolerant of being watched and just aren’t bothered anymore.
I know they won’t ever turn into my social butterfly like Princess. She almost never even startles! She’s so used to being around people- the previous owner had her for 5-6 years too, and all the crabs from him are friendly and unthreatened and healthy. (I believe there were 9 total crabs and all are this way, to various degrees. It took them just a few days to be totally comfortable with whatever, but that’s normal! He (previous owner) said he handled them about as often as I do from what I understand, so I do believe it helps them- even in transition from home to hone which is hard enough on the poor guys (and gals!) I believe it lessens a portion of the stress they experience going from one owner to another bc they at least know that people aren’t really a threat. Idk. It’s a shot in the dark kinda bc there isn’t any science to back it up. Hmmm. I wonder if someone here is talented and smart enough to take a poll and consolidate, to see who lands where in the handling crabs scale! Not it! I was thinking how cool it would be if there was a person with a group of crab owners, who kept track of this data from home to home. And to ALSO keep records of who has friendly crabs vs not as much, and then to see how they do in transition; whether or not their comfort with one human transfers universally or on a crab to crab basis... idk maybe I’m crazy and overthinking it all, but that would be even more informative in general. IMO...

Sorry so long! Didn’t mean to. Image


Dave the Wondercrab~Pat~Maggie~ Billy~Pop~Corn~Ten~Sam~MissTeri~Tim~Gene~ Barry~Mr S~Princess + 5 Es + Mr EnDoh =my crabby clan!
I definitely think it would be interesting and beneficial in understanding these fascinating little guys to do a study like that.

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Re: Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Post by DevilNDisguise » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:21 pm

Overmountain1 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:57 pm
Absolutely correct! They flick antennae back when they’re mad or agitated or whatever the crab equivalent is! I can note this in the Es more so bc they don’t have shells to pull into, so everything stays out in the open the entire time. But when they’re threatened.... you get an eyeless crab. Image I have better shots but it always cracks me up. (He loosened up like 2 seconds later...) Meet Big E, my largest one. Really original name I know. The e is for my hubby actually!
*edited to add that he was coming out of ISO; that is not his full time crabitat behind him!
Image

As far as the guys go- I think we all know when our crabs are threatened/scared and back off immediately, and that is a good thing. However, I feel like in my interacting with them that they have all benefitted from some handling, as they aren’t absolutely terrified when someone walks in the room. Conditioned is exactly the word I know. We can all adjust to almost anything- and so can many crabs. Even the shy ones. I feel like.... i feel like going ahead and encouraging your crabs to come out and visit you, even when they don’t, reinforced (to them) that we are not a threat or dangerous. *that is an opinion and by no means based on fact or long years of knowledge, just that I’ve had a couple of shy crabs turn it around and be if not totally fine, tolerant of being watched and just aren’t bothered anymore.
I know they won’t ever turn into my social butterfly like Princess. She almost never even startles! She’s so used to being around people- the previous owner had her for 5-6 years too, and all the crabs from him are friendly and unthreatened and healthy. (I believe there were 9 total crabs and all are this way, to various degrees. It took them just a few days to be totally comfortable with whatever, but that’s normal! He (previous owner) said he handled them about as often as I do from what I understand, so I do believe it helps them- even in transition from home to hone which is hard enough on the poor guys (and gals!) I believe it lessens a portion of the stress they experience going from one owner to another bc they at least know that people aren’t really a threat. Idk. It’s a shot in the dark kinda bc there isn’t any science to back it up. Hmmm. I wonder if someone here is talented and smart enough to take a poll and consolidate, to see who lands where in the handling crabs scale! Not it! I was thinking how cool it would be if there was a person with a group of crab owners, who kept track of this data from home to home. And to ALSO keep records of who has friendly crabs vs not as much, and then to see how they do in transition; whether or not their comfort with one human transfers universally or on a crab to crab basis... idk maybe I’m crazy and overthinking it all, but that would be even more informative in general. IMO...

Sorry so long! Didn’t mean to. Image


Dave the Wondercrab~Pat~Maggie~ Billy~Pop~Corn~Ten~Sam~MissTeri~Tim~Gene~ Barry~Mr S~Princess + 5 Es + Mr EnDoh =my crabby clan!
I definitely know what you mean. I have some experience with shy crabs becoming more outgoing. One in particular, my second biggest, I adopted from work. Someone brought him in and I took him. He was living in one of those circular "hermit crab" cages, and was on a thin layer of gravel with nothing but a damp sponge and a dish of pellet food. The family told me their other one "randomly died" and that the remaining one was too aggressive, pinched the kids, and now they don't want him anymore.

It was true; he pinched a lot. And he was very timid. I gave him the name "Pincher" and let him settle into the enclosure. Over time I'd work with him. I'd take him out maybe monthly like Penny and now, he never pinches and is actually a lot more outgoing. He definitely isn't like Penny, but he's come so far from when I first got him.
1 Bearded Dragon, 1 Guinea Pig, 1 Mouse, 1 Lovebird, 1 Dog, 2 Cats, 2 Rabbits, 2 Frogs, 2 Cockatiels, 2 Budgies & Their 3 Babies, 3 Rats, 4 Hamsters, and Many Hermit Crabs!

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Re: Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Post by Julsie » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:34 am

w h a l e b o n e wrote:I'm just really curious about this because I know a lot of people on here emphasize being hands-off for valid reasons such as concerns about their gills, stress, etc., but I'm also curious about the flip side because it worked for Carol Ormes and Jonathan Livingston Crab. I saw an older thread from October about this and everyone was talking about obvioussly humidity concerns but also how hermit crabs are prey animals.

I know this is fairly controversial, especially since most say hands-off, but I've wondered about that part because I've handled insects and invertebrates my whole life and I feel like sometimes I could tell if they were afraid but others were much calmer and not trying to hide or run away and didn't really see me as a threat. I've even held a few bees and one did try to sting me (I think it was already stressed as it wasn't doing well when I picked it up) but some seemed fine. With some small critters I've picked up it was almost like they treated me like part of their surroundings, like I was just a tree or something. They just crawled around on me normally.

I've always viewed it with the lens of how animals interpret biological movement, like how a heron stalking a lizard sways its head side to side to imitate the movement of grass. I bet that crabs can do the same thing as any other creature, identify what is a threat and what is not. They couldn't hide from everything or they'd never eat or breed, just maybe fast movements that look like a bird trying to peck at them or another predator. By this logic, some crabs may be more tolerant of handling than others. I've found that when I've handled my crab, he doesn't like sudden movements and will hide, much like a bird will fly away if you made a loud noise or a sudden movement. When I make slow, predictable movements, he will just crawl around and explore my hand and whatever's around him. I can't say that he necessarily likes it, as there may be bias on my end of misinterpreting or anthropomorphizng him, but I think hermit crabs probably can learn what is a threat and what isn't.

While this alone doesn't justify anything, I still think that this is something interesting to think about when debating about handling crabs. I'd be interested to hear thoughts on this for both arguments.

(Sorry for the incoherent rant lol it's hard for me to get out all my thoughts at once)
Out of my 6 crabs i’ve handled all of them. Some are more shy than others and I tend to hold those and take those out more often than I do the shy ones. Hopefully the shyness breaks over time but I try to let them come to me rather than me coming to them and bothering them if they are out of the crabitat. My largest crab is very shy and I would take him out of the crabitat every other day and it would usually take him about 15-20mins to come out of hiding and start walking around. Every time he spooked back into his shell he would come back out say 5 minutes less than the time before. My second largest crab is another story, he doesn’t shy at all and loves to walk all over and climb all over my hands. I have two smaller ones that also love to walk around and are very fast and they do not shy into their shells at all! I’d say most of my crabs that I own are very people friendly :) ImageImageImageImageImage


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Hands-off or hands-on? I'd like to bring a thought to the table

Post by Overmountain1 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:05 pm

Awww such pretty little friends you have! I love the one in the dark shell that looks like he’s got a grey-ish type hue, the one up on your arm in the other pic I think? They’re all very pretty crabbies!

I’d like to hear from anybody else who visits with their friends, occasionally or a little more often! I love hearing about others’ experiences doing this and what sort of results/reactions you’ve gotten from them! A good thread for the other side of the fence going on here I believe! Like, those of us who do interact with them, I feel like a lot of us don’t talk about it much for fear of backlash? Not me personally, but it’s definitely a legitimate concern sometimes.

Keep going! I wanna hear more!Image

This is my silly Gene- I don’t know what was into him this day- he was doing this after like 2 seconds of being picked up lol. He went so far at one point I saw the actual very end of his abdomen- whaaaa?!? I did feel bad and I immediately let him go back to doing his Gene thing but wow! Image

Image

***Edited to say there is actually a hand just out of frame under the little guy! My son took the pic really quickly for us.
Dave the Wondercrab~Pat~Maggie~ Billy~Pop~Corn~Ten~Sam~MissTeri~Tim~Gene~ Barry~Mr S~Princess + 5 Es + Mr EnDoh =my crabby clan!

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