Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

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Renroc
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Re: Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

Post by Renroc » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:37 am

mlakers wrote:Day Seven, Attempt #2
1) The zoeae seem to be doing really well. No obvious deaths (or the dead are being eaten, but I'm not seeing partial carcasses either).

2) I did have a really good sign after the water change: I took some of the betta grains and ground them up extra fine and added those and the zoeae seemed to jump right on them. Once the pellets were ground, they sank really well and the zoeae seemed to swarm them. I haven't had that positive a reaction to any food so far, so that made me happy.

3) Unfortunately, I seem to have misplaced my iPhone camera lens set (macro, wide angle, and fish-eye). I'm so bummed. I looked everywhere yesterday and today--even in the trash, just in case. And I cannot find them anywhere, so no pictures.
1) if they are like Aussies they will eat each other in preference to any other food. If this is their main food you probably won’t notice much colour in their gut tracks as the food they are eating is the same colour as they are Image

2) I found very fine beta grains were by far the best food. The ones I had actually sunk once they soaked up a big of water. This also made them softer.

3) I have an Olympus TG4 camera. It takes brilliant photos in microscope mode. Not particularly expensive but I think they are up to TG5 now. Camera is also waterproof and can be controlled from an iPhone if needed. It could actually go right into the jars. Image


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Crazy crab lady with 1 male raised in captivity who is now 7 yrs old (Dec 23) and a 2 females I've added from rehoming or adoptions to add to my breeding colony.

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Re: Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

Post by mlakers » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 pm

Oh, that camera sounds awesome. Is that what you use when diving, too?

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Re: Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

Post by mlakers » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:24 pm

Day Eight, Attempt #2

Everyone looks good. Again, no dead noted, but possibly any that were dead got eaten.

I was pretty confused for most of the day, though. They look different this time around, or I simply have fewer in the jars and so can see them better. I REALLY wish I could take a picture and get advice, but the best way I can describe them looking is as shrimp with hands. At the mid-point of the bodies of many of them, they have splayed out "fingers." At first I thought it was somehow megalopa and they were claws, but it's only been a week and there's no way they made it through enough stages to get to megalopa. Then I thought that maybe those were ones that had been "eaten" at the center and that was what was left of their guts, but they were still swimming and moving their tales purposefully, so I ruled that out. Then I thought that maybe they were simply deformed and that was why they had been dropped on the sand. (I was really reaching for some explanation as you can tell.)

What I finally decided is that they have their legs spread out wide in hopes of grabbing onto some food that might float by or bump into them. The ends of their legs were definitely wider, though, and kind of feathery looking. So strange. I didn't notice any of this before, with the earlier batch, probably because there were so many. These guys are a lot more freefloating with so much space and therefore exhibiting more "planktonic" behaviors. In the great wide ocean, you never know when food is going to float by, and so you'd better have your grabbers in position. :idea:

I also think they moved into stage three today, but I'm just not sure because the sheds don't pollute the water with fifty in a jar the same way they did with 500 in a jar.

Just keepin' on keepin' on. Much less stressed and obsessed this time around, which feels good. Even if I still have to remind myself to walk away and stop trying to figure out everything and/or make everything perfect, at least I'm not making myself sick.

Meanwhile, I gave my adult hermies some new shells and there have been cascading changes that I haven't had time to track, so I'm going to have to spend a little time figuring out who's wearing what shell, but they are happy to have some new duds. I found a great source for larger, good quality polished fluctuosus turbos (Mexican turbos) and my crabs went nuts.

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Re: Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

Post by mlakers » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:18 pm

Day Nine, Attempt #2

Everyone seems to be cruising along just fine. They like the First Bites a lot, as well as the frozen brine shrimp, and the betta granules. Tonight was a "clean jar" night and they clearly needed it, the bottom of the jar smelled a bit funky after I dumped it out.

Lots of zoeae had really good color tonight--sort of pinkish orange. Still seeing the weird "hands" but I think they must be normal as the zoeae with them are fine still, swimming and moving. I'll do some research and see if it's a thing that's been mentioned before.

Thursday is when I'll be going away for for 48 hours, so tomorrow I will start to prepare them. I'm going to gradually lower the temperature, just a few degrees at a time to get them closer to 78 degrees, which is what the hexagonal tank is kept at and those are still alive. I think 48 hours of lower temps is probably the best way to get the maximum number to survive until I can get back to their routine. I'm assuming they will slow down sort of like adult hermies do with cooler temps, and cooler water also holds oxygen better and is less likely to decompose any food in the bottom. I'll probably feed them some of the betta grains to hold them over. I think those will "last" the best as food, without spoiling the water. I'm dreading being gone, but it can't be helped so I'll do the best I can.

Oh, and one jar of zoeae I will put in the hexagonal tank and the other two jars I will put into the round goldfish bowl that I have and affix a bubbler to each side of the bottom to try and keep it all circulating. I'll also put some sort of cover over it to keep the bubbles from causing so much evaporation that it gets too salty. The bubblers will keep fresh air coming in, so I'm not worried about a cover.

I'll post tomorrow night after I get them all settled for the night, then won't be posting an update until Saturday. Keep your fingers crossed that my plan works well enough to have some survivors to keep the experiment going.

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Renroc
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Re: Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

Post by Renroc » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:15 pm

mlakers wrote:Oh, that camera sounds awesome. Is that what you use when diving, too?
Sure is but I put it in an underwater housing as I usually go deeper than 15m


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Crazy crab lady with 1 male raised in captivity who is now 7 yrs old (Dec 23) and a 2 females I've added from rehoming or adoptions to add to my breeding colony.

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Re: Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

Post by mlakers » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:11 pm

I'm home from my trip and there are survivors. Not a lot of them, but around ten or fifteen. I've got them back in jars and will proceed as before. I'll give a more extensive recap tomorrow.

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Renroc
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Re: Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

Post by Renroc » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:25 pm

YAAY they are tougher than you realise.
Crazy crab lady with 1 male raised in captivity who is now 7 yrs old (Dec 23) and a 2 females I've added from rehoming or adoptions to add to my breeding colony.

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Re: Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

Post by GotButterflies » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:31 pm

That's great news!!! :banana:
Truly blessed to have incredible creatures, wonderful friends and my amazing family in my life!! I'm very thankful & grateful for all of them! www.thehealthyhermit.com

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Re: Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

Post by daws409 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:25 pm

Awwwesome!!

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Re: Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

Post by mlakers » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:52 am

Day 14, Attempt #2

Two weeks in, and can I just say that they are so freaking adorable? I can really see a lot more about the individuals when I have ten or so in a jar. Not that I'm happy about that low number, but it's better than zero.

Ironically, the container that I put the most zoeae in for my 48 hours away did the worst. And not because of the numbers, but because of the water flow. In my last attempt I lost the most in one day when I put them into the fish bowl and tried to let it cycle with sand and shells in the bottom. I assumed it was the substrate (and that was a big part of it), but that wasn't all it was because this time the fishbowl was completely clean at the bottom except for some fresh food added just before I left. I keep stubbornly thinking that the best container for water flow MUST be a sphere, right? What circulates better than a circular container? Well, a mason jar does. Twice now, I've taken that hard lesson, but this time I do believe it will stick, having finally gotten through my thick skull.

I had three airstones in the fish bowl, even, and the zoeae appeared to be circulating before I left. But there is apparently a "dead zone" at the bottom where the 1/4-inch foot of the jar is. Over time,I believe that one or two got caught there, suffocated, and then created a sort of "log jam" that then kept trapping others. There was a semicircle of dead bodies in the little rim of that ring (which is a HUGE rim to a larval hermit crab). My thinking made sense--three times the volume of water would stay fresher longer with only half the zoeae for the volume. But it didn't bear out. I think there was maybe one survivor in there out of two jars worth. Fortunately, at the last minute I had decided to leave about ten in a mason jar just as an experiment. Most of those survived, so if I had just left them all in the jars I would have had a much higher survival rate. :cry:

But it does appear as if I may have up to twenty survivors. There were a lot of motionless ones that really looked dead but I decided to do the same "crabby CPR" trick that I did with the eggs that were left on the sand. I sucked them up with the eyedropper, but then lifted it above the water line while it was still filling and that sucked a bunch of air into the eye dropper and that tosses the zoeae around with lots of air. It also gets off any gunk that might be sticking to them (which sometimes happens if they've gotten completely still at the bottom). They didn't all revive, but many did. So crazy! As you say, renroc, they are tougher than I think and they just keep on proving it.

The strange areas at the center of their bodies I am no longer worried about. I've figured out that it's the "feathery" ends of their legs and they hold them out wide to catch floating food, then clamp the food toward their bodies and eat it while swirling through the water. This is the origin of the "freaking adorable" comment. They really are smart and super visual. In fact, I've been thinking a lot about their eyes. With baby animals, you can usually tell what is the most important skill for them to have based on what is largest on them at birth. Human babies have giant heads for their big brains. Ungulates are born with long, sturdy legs and stand shortly after birth, etc. It's the idea that reproduction puts the most energy into what will be most important for that particular animal and hermit crabs are definitely all eyes from day one. Shoot--prior to day one! You see their eyes when they are still in the eggs. And when a zoea carcass starts to decompose, the last things to go are the eyes. It can be really hard to find them in detritus, but two little black specks close together are the first thing to look for. Sometimes it's only a head left, but most of the time it leads me to survivors. I gave myself a headache yesterday staring so hard trying to locate any survivors among the gunk.

Anyway, I'll keep them in two jars even though with only twenty I could easily use one, but it's a matter of spreading out the risk at this point--and I also enjoy being able to track individual swimmers a little better.

I also think there are sheds in the water today so we may be entering stage 4, although I hate to be too certain in my assessment since I was so off on my count last time around.

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Re: Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

Post by DaJimmer » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:24 pm

Your research is quite commendable make sure you write this down in your own personal notes and publish it someday :)
-Jimmer

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Renroc
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Re: Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

Post by Renroc » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:36 pm

Dead water is deadly as you have sadly discovered. Also probably 3 air stones would be creating competing currents and creating some dead areas as well. I only ever had 1 airstone per container. Just turn the volume up or down to create greater or less flow.

Keep on going. I had most success with fewer numbers.
Crazy crab lady with 1 male raised in captivity who is now 7 yrs old (Dec 23) and a 2 females I've added from rehoming or adoptions to add to my breeding colony.

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Re: Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

Post by mjjluver » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:53 pm

:blob3: :smt109 YAY BABIES!

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Re: Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

Post by GotButterflies » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:04 pm

So thrilled that there are more than you initially thought!!! :) :cloud9:
Truly blessed to have incredible creatures, wonderful friends and my amazing family in my life!! I'm very thankful & grateful for all of them! www.thehealthyhermit.com

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Re: Artemis, Day 14 carrying eggs

Post by mlakers » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:39 pm

Day Sixteen, Attempt #2

Last night the outside temps went down to 32 here and even with our heat on, the temp went down pretty low in the tank with the zoeae. Despite having a tank heater set at 83 degrees, it was more like 74 according to the thermometer. It didn't look like I lost any (one was sort of questionable looking--they get more opaque when they die and this one was headed that direction) but I'll probably be able to tell tomorrow. They were definitely sluggish first thing in the morning, though. I think I have four in one jar and eight in the other. Not sure how we got imbalanced. I must have droppered some back into the wrong jar at some point, but I haven't decided if I'll even it up or leave it as is.

Just keeping on keeping on. No expectations, but hoping we get farther along with these guys.

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