Aussie salt water myth?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:26 pm

Hi Crystal,

what about a few subtle changes along the lines of

If the Aussie's came from a store that only offered salt water 1x a week (or no salt water as some cases may be), and you feel that is healthiest to offer 24/7 access of salt, it is advised to increase the amount of salt water exposure gradually over time so that the Aussie can adjust to the change in diet more easily and reduce the possibility of potential gorging.

Then you can lose the first bit

If you feel that is healthiest to offer 24/7 access of salt water to your Aussies, it is recommended to gradually introduce them over time to the full access.

As you have said it in the second bit already and would be repeating yourself.

Thankyou very much for your efforts for the care sheet. We do all appreciate it and your patience with this issue!

cheers Jennie

tigermoon89 · Post by **tigermoon89** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:46 pm

Thanks! That's more along the lines of what I was getting at

I was up again until about 3am reading through the other threads debate and comparing it to ours. Lol we topped them by one page.

Nat_addicted to HC's · Post by **Nat_addicted to HC's** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:21 am

Hi Crystal

I guess Bob and Merv have not bothered to reply?

tigermoon89 · Post by **tigermoon89** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:19 pm

I haven't heard back from either one of them.

I know Bob is dealing with an illness in his family- there was a post about that under the thread about him closing ELHC.

I will attempt to email Merv again.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:50 pm

Hi,

well it seems our big debate here has also splashed over onto the other site too, they have posted your letter on-line Crystal!

Anyway I personally think the author has summed the whole debate up rather well!

http://crabstreetjournal.com/xoops/modu ... 77&forum=4

cheers Jennie

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:56 pm

oh and I just found your letter and Vanessa's response posted here too

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/hermies/

tigermoon89 · Post by **tigermoon89** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:42 pm

Jennie wrote:oh and I just found your letter and Vanessa's response posted here too

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/hermies/

Thanks! lol, that spread pretty quick. Marie/ladybug owns the yahoo group.

SachOfSCP · Post by **SachOfSCP** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:20 pm

Wow....what an interesting "debate" this is. I have stayed away from here because I have gotten involved in far too many arguments on this site, but as the owner of a crab care forum myself, I will put my 2 cents worth in, in no order of importance or relevance.

First, I have no variabilis, so I have no personal experience with them. That being said....

*Just because crabs are found on the beach doesn't mean they are there all the time nor does it mean they are drinking or bathing in salt water every day. We all have water in our house, but it doesn't mean we drink it every day, all day.

*Just because a crab (or person or any other animal) does something given the chance doesn't mean it's good for them; I have a cat who eats Doritos if you give them to him...but they also make him barf,hh.

*What would the harm be in restricting salt water access? Mango is good for the crabs too, but no one says they have to have it 24/7.

*Don't the crabs more bathe in the salt water (to control shell salinity) then drink it? Wouldn't this already denote they don't need to do it every day?

*How do we know for certain that Crazy Crabs is the only exporter of Aussies? I've seen it repeated, but no one says how they know for sure he is.

*Neither individual crabbers, nor an exporter is able to observe the crabs 24/7 to see what they are doing (ie; gorging or not gorging), so I don't think the statements about, "My crabs never/always do...." are relevant.

*The constant request for "documentation", "proof", etc when it comes to one side or another irritates me. Why? Because I just read a book from my son's school written by someone who said they'd researched crabs and that suitable substrates were cigarette filters, crushed glass, rusty nails, etc. and that your crabs should NEVER be handled because they hate it. Now, this is a published and circulated book, but it doesn't make it true. The best "proof" to me is experience. Everyone wants to argue against "one person's opinion" when all they each have are their own.

*Just because things aren't documented or posted here on HCA doesn't mean they aren't available to those who seek them.

*Calling the salt water restriction suggestion a "myth" precludes opinion and colors the opinion of someone reading the info. Why not call it a "theory" and let people decide for themselves?

*I think it's very unwise to compare what a crab may do in the wild to what he may do in a tank-two different worlds for a crabby.

*Yes, there are unexplained deaths all the time; which means they could be from salt water intoxication, or maybe not-that's why they are called "unexplained".

*When it comes to crab deaths, let's be frank here people. No one ever wants to admit that a crab death could be something they did, even if on accident. In my opinion, the average crabber is loathe to even admit they have deaths. So who knows how many deaths of Aussies could be from salt water intoxication? I'm not trying to start anything here, I'm just giving my opinion and trying to cut through some of the rhetoric.

*I too, am a friend of Bob from ELHC, so here's my say on that...the issues as to why or why not, how or even if Bob is open for business, selling crabs, publishing his research etc is none of anyone else's beeswax and it has no bearing on this argument or his credibility with crabs. Bob has co-authored species, discovered hybrid species not known about before and been successful breeding hermit crabs in captivity for years, among other things. He works with researchers and governments all over the world-HE IS ALL ABOUT HERMIT CRABS, believe me. He has also been at it for more than 30 years; that gives him a lot of credibility in my mind. Crab survival rates for both him personally as well as for those who buy crabs from him are DRAMATICALLY higher than any where else you can get crabs. All of these things seem to point to him knowing what he's talking about...at least to me. If he says restrict it for younger Aussies; I'd do it.

*We've all noticed by now that crabs can have very unique personalities. What works for one person, may not work for 100 others and vice versa. The numbers that people like Bob (from ELHC) and Tammy & Kirk (from The Hermit Crab Patch) have had to work with, when it comes to learning about crabs would outnumber all the members' on this page's crabs put together by a huge margin. This is what Sue and I are talking about when we say there is A LOT of research behind stuff like this; it isn't just one guy saying, "Hey, try this." So hey, if you have an Aussie that lives on straight EE and has salt water all the time, more power to you; but you may have an oddball crab, he he. As Sue pointed out, even the most fervent crabber anywhere will not have had the time and number of crabs do the same thing that the above mentioned people have. I know we have all become used to networking with other crabbers on what works for them, but that can also be how "myths" get started in the first place-think about that one, guys......

*This is what we have in a community like ours, folks-word of mouth. Look how many people and pet shops still look at and treat crabs as "throwaway pets". This is due somewhat to a lack of desire to learn different-for many it really is all about the money for both the exporters/sellers as well as the buyers; but it is mainly because of "word of mouth". Don't you think the first person who clued in to the fact that crabs needed humidity or sand or even salt water-was treated like a loony and a heretic, hh? Somebody had to be the first person to say something and spread it around-whether it's right or wrong. Going against the grain is always met with skepticism, but where would we be without it in situations like seat belts or pasteurization?

tigermoon89 · Post by **tigermoon89** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:44 pm

I really can't believe Merv's response!!!! Here it is in all its glory:

That info is all **** (he said a swear word)

Send $5 plus postage and I will send you a copy of my book

Thanks
Merv cooper

On 20/12/10 1:27 AM, "Crystal" <tigermoon89> wrote:

Hello,

Do Aussies need to have their salt water intake restricted to once a week?

Do you know how the (potential) myth of Aussies being salt water gorges got started?

Are younger Aussies more likely to gorge themselves on salt water than older Aussies?

What type of care do you recommend for this species and how long have you cared for them?

Thank you for any information in advance!

Crystal

Merv Cooper
MCA PRINTING/PERTH SHELL DISTRIBUTORS
CRAZY CRABS TM
Telephone: 61 8 9528 2722 Fax: 61 8 9528 2733
12 Ambrose Street, ROCKINGHAM 6168 WESTERN AUSTRALIA
PO BOX 7037 SAFETY BAY WESTERN AUSTRALIA 6169
email: merv@perthshells.com
web: www.perthshells.com
email: info@crazycrabs.com
web: www.crazycrabs.com
OPEN Wednesday to Sunday 10am to 4pm

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:57 pm

ok in your order

1 - The place a crab is found is relevant as one would assume they will replicate their behavior in the wild. Also if a person is spreading a myth about crabs but does not even know where they are harvested what else are they wrong about.

2 - This may be true but is not really relevant. It is not wise to remove an essential necessity for healthy crab life without a good reason.

3 - They may not need to do it every day, 24hr access gives them choice as to when they do it as according to their biological needs.

4 - Crazy crabs say they are the only exporter, ask them. It also says so on the export license application. We DO know for sure.

5 - Proof is not merely published, we were asking for evidence based on research. Unfortunately what has happened here is a handful of people who apparently know Bob from ELHC have got on internet forums and started saying about Aussie's gorging on salt water myth. Despite this being in direct opposition against the experience of many many Australian crabbers who have kept their crabs healthy and happy for the past 15 years with 24hour access. This is also despite the fact that no one has actually ever seen a crab engorge on salt water. Bob's word second-hand on the internet is simply not enough evidence.

6 - We compare crabs to what they do in the wild as crab care for all species has been moving towards a more natural and less interference kind of care for the past decade. Why should Aussies be different?

7- Many of the Aussies crabbers have talked frankly here and on the other forums about crab death/ or lack of. There are a few of us with no mysterious deaths at all. How long does it take for a crab to engorge and drown? This is the problem with this myth - it is very unclear about what will even happen and how long it is supposed to take.

8- It is fine for you to believe and trust Bob. Bob's business etc has been discussed simply because we are being asked to accept his word second-hand with no other proof and in fact what proof we do have all points in the opposite direction. I still personally find it hard to believe he has 30 yrs experience dealing with Aussies unless he is a long term Australian resident. We were asking about his experience with Aussies specifically. It is relevant to this discussion. "All of these things seem to point to him knowing what he's talking about...at least to me. " This is the key word here - "At least for you". He is a ghost on the net, there are no references at all past the last two years. Why should we trust him? Especially when his advice goes against a well known Australian Crabber like Vanessa Pike-Russel, who has been well documented over the past 18 years in her struggle to educate Australians on better crab care. She personally found a much higher survival rate in her crabs when she switched to 24hour access to salt water.

9-"The numbers that people like Bob (from ELHC) and Tammy & Kirk (from The Hermit Crab Patch) have had to work with, when it comes to learning about crabs would outnumber all the members' on this page's crabs put together by a huge margin. "

We are talking about Aussie crabs here. Are these people also Australian residents or does their experience with Aussies only go back to a maximum of 4.5 yrs? The crabbers on this page may have only been crabbing the past three years but are referring to published university research and other more experienced Australian crabbers.

Really if this situation was reversed and PP's were being newly imported into Australia and some people started quoting an mysterious Australian crab seller that salt water made them engorge and drown in their salt dish you would be more then skeptical. Especially as you and all your fellow American crabbers including those who had been keeping the same crabs for more then a decade had never heard of this and certainly never seen a crab die this way. Certainly when your own experts tell for it is in fact much healthier to have 24hr access to water. You would call it a myth which has already been directly proven to be wrong.

Really this is ridiculous. It is a myth.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:06 pm

oh Crystal - that is CLASSIC!!!! so funny!!! I wonder what his book says!!!

TheCrabbyTabby · Post by **TheCrabbyTabby** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:32 pm

Great, just when I think that its all said and done, that everything is out on the table and we've gone through all that there is to go through, it seems to start up again.

We have agreed to just leave it at a personal preference sort of thing and to have people's experience with Aussie's come to fruition and how they thrive under the two different circumstances.

Can we just end this debate? It exhausts me just reading it.

[edited]

SachOfSCP · Post by **SachOfSCP** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:31 pm

This will be the last post I make here, as this was the reason I stopped in the first place. Everyone is going to do what they want to do, regardless.

1.Where they are supposedly found when they are harvested does not prove they are there all the time; merely when they are harvested.

2.YOU are saying it isn't a good reason; that's the argument. And we aren't talking about removing it permanently. The statement was still relevant because the statement was that just because the crabs will go to the water more when it's available still doesn't mean it's good for them.....after all, don't people say crabs will eat paint chips from painted shells if given the opportunity?

Still no answers as to the fact NO ONE can know what the crabs are doing 24 hours a day.

4.Merv is the only exporter and there is proof? Good. Good thing I'm not asking to see it personally, but going by word of mouth that it exists. Funny, how one minute he's touted as an expert and then is shown to only be out for profit. BOB is the ONLY importer of variabilis in the US, so I'm guessing that means he gets his crabs from Merv....does that make it conflicting?

5-As I said it is not just a "handful of people who know Bob". As I also said, what is said on HCA is NOT the be-all-end-all of what is known or distributed about crabs. Not only do Tammy & Kirk back up this "myth" with THEIR own years of research, but so do the crabbers and scientists around the world that Bob works for. Us "handful of people who know Bob" are the ones nice enough to try to enlighten people about it; that's all. Bob & the rest of those guys are busy learning more about the crabs. The "many" Australian crabbers you mention that go in direct opposition to Bob's method....I have heard of a couple on here; the rest is all...word of mouth.

6.Life in a tank vs life in the wild is not and never will be the same, no matter how much lack of interference one wants to lean toward for ANY species. We can try to replicate the conditions they have in the wild, but that doesn't mean the crabs will replicate their wild behavior for us.

7.The answers to your questions can be found, just not where the information isn't welcomed.

8.I never said Bob had 30 years experience with variabilis, but I doubt he got all the other species right and is wrong on Aussies. "He is a ghost on the net, there are no references at all past the last two years." I guess you are looking in the wrong place then, because I happen to know of lots of posts he makes on the internet; the last I read myself? Posted yesterday. An admin on this site bought crabs from him THIS YEAR.
**I am SO glad you brought up VPR. I had a look at her site today. Under the heading "substrate" on the front page: "The most popular substrates being: sanitised beach sand; silica-free play sand; fine river pebbles (such as Australian Pet Supplies or Estes NaturalStone); crushed coral (such as Estes Reef Sand in the US); T-Rex Bone Aide Calci-Sand; and other hermit crab-safe substrates suitable for your climate. " Pebbles?! Calci-Sand?! Under the heading "UTH" next down,:" An U.T.H. is used to keep the hermit crabs warm by gently warming the glass floor of the tank, in turn warming the sand. You may need a thermostat to regulate the warmth of the sand at the glass level within your tank if the artificial heating temperature rises above 26oC or 75oF." Hmmmm.
Recommending commercial pellets?! A complete deep clean MONTHLY?! So that's you are saying knows more about crabs than Bob, Tammy, Kirk and various scientists and crabbers the world over?! Oh....kay.

9. As I said in #8, I doubt they became experts on all the other species and screwed up Aussies.Plus, what "university research" are you referring to?

10. No one has proven anything wrong. It's all word of mouth on all sides no matter how you look at it. Like I said, you will all do what you want. In recent years saying crabs lived longer than a couple years would be considered a myth, but that has been proven wrong; actually proven wrong.

[edited]

It'd be GREAT of it could just be left for people to decide for themselves. But I saw too much that wasn't even about the info, but about chipping away at the credibility of the people giving the information and this elitism I keep seeing. That is counterproductive and unnecessary. You guys wanna know these things, ask Bob, or Tammy or Kirk yourselves and form your own opinion, but at least go look around and ask. It never hurts to expand one's horizons.

As I said, this will be my last post here. There are many opinions in the crab community and more than one forum to share them on. I'm off to greener pastures.

Have fun everyone, I wish you and your crabs all the best.

samurai_crab · Post by **samurai_crab** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:02 pm

I love how everyone backing up Bob gets extremely defensive and yet can't elaborate on his research, I highly doubt his research is wrong personally, at least most of it. The biggest problem i have about it is, well lack of evidence showing it, I'm sorry but if you are a scientist, you publish your work. I know this because I'm a biology major, possibly looking into a masters/phd in biology. I hate to tell anyone but all this unpublished work bob has done is sitting out there for anyone else to take and actually get the credit. Horrible to think about but entirely possible.
Now back on topic, the reason we doubt his research on Aussies is because well it goes against what the residents of Australia say. Also, it would be easy to find out how Aussies behave in the wild, just run an observation study on them for a few weeks/months in their natural habitat. Then measure salinity of the water they drink.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:44 am

I agree with you Crabby Tabby. I have had enough too. My last post on it. Just a few points as most of this has been thrashed to death.

Suebee used an argument of location to explain the salt engorgement myth. She thought they lived inland. This has been proven false.

She then used Merv (without knowing his name or how he was, referring only to him only as the exporter) as saying that he stated that the crabs would engorge. I have never said he was good or bad to crabs, I merely wanted to prove that he did not support this myth. He is the supplier of Bob's crabs. "Merv is the only exporter and there is proof? Good. Good thing I'm not asking to see it personally, but going by word of mouth that it exists" if you bothered to follow some of the earlier links in this debate to the export application you can find out for yourself. Or contact Merv yourself. I am personally not a fan of his crab care but wanted to show that not even he supported this myth.

You are quite right about HCA not being the bee all and end all of everything about Crabs, I was also refering to the other forems where this debate has been going on. Go and read the Hermit Crab Paradise debate (there was a link earlier in this debate to it), there is a list of Australian crabbers and how long each of them has had their crabs with 24hr access. I did also read what Suebee wrote about this debate on your site.

" 7.The answers to your questions can be found, just not where the information isn't welcomed. "

Where can the answers to my questions be found? I have asked for details over and over, I would like to have see some answers, I really would. How long does it take to salt engorge? How many crabs would this happen to on %, what are the symptoms of salt engorging? Please enlighten us.

"He is a ghost on the net, there are no references at all past the last two years." I guess you are looking in the wrong place then, because I happen to know of lots of posts he makes on the internet; the last I read myself? Posted yesterday."

You missed the "no references past the last two years", as in older then two years old.

I believe Vanessa's website is pretty old, as far as I know she has stepped back from campaigning on crabs after devoting so much time to it.

I don't know Bob, or any of the others who are supporting the myth. I am certainly not trying to chip away at anyones credibility. I am not trying to be elitist and I am not at all sure what you meant by that. I am merely trying to show some of the holes and blank spots in the arguements used to support this myth.

Anyway here is me signing off on this debate, it seems to be getting a bit personal, I hope this has been helpful for some people!! cheers Jennie