Favorite Saltwater mix?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:24 am

Where did you get the Red Sea salt water mix from?

cranlsn · Post by **cranlsn** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:51 pm

I've been using Doc Wellfish - easy to find/use & small enough to store with the rest of our "Hermie gear".

The crabs seem to enjoy it (but we haven't used anything else to compare it to). Perhaps I'll try one of the others when we run out of this.

Willow · Post by **Willow** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:59 pm

I bought the Red Sea from PetCo....$12.50 for 25 gallon mix if I remember correctly.
Bab--I just got some Real Ocean the other day and I can't wait to try it! I'm glad to see someone else has tried it with good results.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:47 pm

OkieDokie, now, nobody flame me, ok?? I'm just thinking out loud here.....
So I'm looking at the different mixes people are using, checking out the recommended salinities, the mineral profiles as listed by manufacturers, planning trials, and something occurs to me.
Where exactly in nature do Coenobitidae have access to deep sea reef water anyway???????? They live on the shore, so the water they are used to is shorewater, not deep sea. Shorewater has a different pH, different mineral profile, lower salinity, everything. I think this might bear checking out, trying to see what is needed to match that, rather than match reefwater....
The other thing that occurs to me........ African Cichlids........
Yeah, ok, they have nothing to do with crabs, but here's the thing. African cichlids, like hermit crabs, are all very closely related, but come in different species, with different locations. Let's take the three main locations that pet cichlids come from as an example. Lake Victoria, Lake Tanganyika, and Lake Malawi. pH between these three locations varies by as much as .5, and the mineral profile of each lake is very different, going from fairly soft to very hard. And we're talking about water sources that, geographically speaking, are fairly close to one another, and are geologically similar......
Now, we have Coenobitidae. Species from as diverse areas as the Carribean, Africa, and the Phillipines. Seawater in all of those places is NOT going to be the same, different geology, different lifeforms, different OCEANS. We're going to have different salinities, different pH, different minerals and trace elements, different microscopic organisms (one of the biggest issues in a captive "ocean"), etc etc etc. So what works for one species is not necessarily going to work for another. Let's take Perlatus, Compressus, Clypeatus, and Brevimanus as examples. Straws have significantly higher in-shell salinity than any other species, which would suggest that they are used to higher salinity waters (they're originally African, and have made their way to Southeast Asia. African water may have a higher salinity) Compressus have in-shell salinity readings of around the same range as natural seawater, and around the same as most saltwater mixes recommend, so we're all right there in the salinity department. Clypeatus have a slightly lower salinity than seawater. A) they need less salt, because they're more terrestrial, and B) we have less salt in the water here in Florida than California or Hawaii, anyone who's been to the beach can tell you that. Brevimanus, by contrast are very terrestrial. They have the lowest in-shell salinity, and what salt they do get comes mostly from diet, however, they can handle living without freshwater at all. I'm willing to bet that Rugoses and Cavipes have different in-shell salinities as well. While I like the idea of the mixed species tank, I can't help but wonder if, to get truly happy crabs, to keep them in the best possible way, it mightn't be better to segregate by region of origin, to try to approximate that region as best as possible. And I know that's not really economically feasible for most people, myself included, who already have mixed tanks, but it's just a thought.

Rather than giving them each the individual types of seawater that they need to thrive, taking into account that every region has different water, we are merely giving all of them the same water that isn't really appropriate for any of them.

BAB · Post by **BAB** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:17 pm

Wow... absolutely no flaming here... hehe... I'm thinking on the same as you with some of the issues with mixed tanks and the taking on of different species needs. I'm looking more at the food end of the deal though... or was... not much time for my research right now. sigh Not to mention, I have no background in the area of marine research. Hehe...

At any rate, something I've read a few times over that may also throw a wrench in the works of your studies here... hehe... gotta love that...

I've read that crabbies will mix their shell water with both sea salt water and freshwater in order to combine their "perfect" shell salinity. Does this prove true or not? I dunno... I can imagine that they would do such a thing though. I've seen my crabs go back and forth between the water dishes and wondered what they were doing. So should we offer the saltiest sea water we can and let them make it out themselves? Back to the drawing board for me...

OH and the size of the tank would be an issue on my thinking here, but maybe offering several "pools" of sea salt water would be a possiblity with the mixed tanks that cannot set up separate tanks. (ONLY if the owner felt the need for this and something proved it as a must.) The size of the tank would play into that though and it's only a speculation. Also the amount of trace minerals, organisms, etc would need to be thought out for each species and then applied to the "pools" in the tank.... what a headache... wow...

Who knows if they'd go their pool or not anyway... as stubborn as crabbies can be. HEHE

Does that help? Or make things more difficult? HEHE

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:50 pm

I was also under the impression they mix both types of water to get the right saltinity level. There have apparently been studies where this was an observed practice of all the speceis.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:23 pm

Indeed, they do mix to get correct salinity, and there are even slight variances in preferred salinity within members of the same species. My point in illustrating the differences in salinity was that
a) Generally, when a species evolves to need a certain, specific condition, like proper salinity, there is a reason, generally dependent on environment.
b) If there are such different salinity needs between species, it stands to reason that other needs are different as well, and
c) If there is such a difference just in salinity of water from various reasons, think how very different the other components that make seawater different from just water with salt there must also be.

I wasn't saying mix different salinity pools (as far as that goes, salinity at the seashore changes based on time of day, currents, whether it's rained, etc etc etc), I just was meaning that perhaps paying greater attention to the biome-specific chemical and ecological diversity between areas in which different species live might be beneficial. I promise I wasn't trying to be obnoxious

I always worry when I question the way it is "recommended" to do things that I'm going to really irritate somebody.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:21 pm

Writing is not always the best form of communication, still I found NOTHING at all irritating with your questioning or thought process.

I love a scientific mind, and love when people question traditional practices if it's respectfully done and well thought out, which your posts always are. I would sincerely hope all others would feel the same way, I think we all give salt water to each species, when once it was thought that it should not need to done for PPs, for example.

Until all of us are keeping our hermies for the same amount of time they live in the wild, there's still A TON to learn about what we're doing wrong. We have a responsibility to try to figure it out, or stop crab keeping.

Even more than an economical issue (if four differnt tanks and foods and all turned out to be what responsible pet ownership would ultimatly mean, then I say, if you don't have the funds to do it, get another pet. I know I can't afford horses, so I don't have them, end of story), I see more of a practicality issue, mostly with the unknowns of what their needs are.

I don't know what their differing needs are in order to accommodate them, nor do I personally have any concrete way of gathering that data or the expertise to analize it, nor do I know if there are resources available to duplicate the nuances.

That would open a whole new can of worms about the correlation between the science, and the industry of the pet trade. I'm certainly not in much of position to infulence what manufacturers provide, and there may be some things which may not even be available in any form currently to duplicate their needs.....I don't know....

I know I'm sounding like a nay-sayer, and I don't mean to sound that way. I'm all for exploring these ideas, and you cisnegra, may be one of the people on the forum who is in a good position to explore it and gather the data, if we were an offical non-profit or had some scientific affiliation may be it would increase our clout with manufacturers, if we could attract more scientists and marine biologist to the site, lobbiest, I don't know, movers and shakers who could do something with this info that would be really helpful.

May be along with exploring these ideas and gathering data that is the direction we should be going in to really improve the health of hermit crabs in the long run. It certainly needs to be done. Right now our main goal is improvment through education, and I think we're pretty darn effective there.

I'd certainly be intersted in hearing more hard data if you're able to get it.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:31 pm

This may sound a bit silly Cisnegra but why don't you put your theory down on paper and send it to Sea World's Marine Biology department. I don't know if it would work or not; I do know that I've seen hermit crabs at Sea World before. You could also send to some of the department heads at Universities that are high ranking in Marine biology. It wouldn't surprise me if one of them eventually picked it up as a project. It wouldn't hurt to check into Jacques Cousteaus family research organization too. You could send them your suggestion. None of us may have the funds to do this type of research but if you put the idea in enough peoples minds someone will pick up on it. Good thinking by the way

.

BAB · Post by **BAB** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:49 pm

cisnegra wrote:I promise I wasn't trying to be obnoxious I always worry when I question the way it is "recommended" to do things that I'm going to really irritate somebody.

I did not find you obnoxious either. I hope I'm not being obnoxious to you or anyone else as well... I'm all for exploring these things. I'm very interested in researching these ideas as well. I just know that I'm not scientific nor do I have any background in this area for research. The basic research that I am capable of is a English research paper.

So being the non-scientist and all that I ask questions back to ya and throw out off-the-wall... maybe even hair-brained ideas to get a better idea myself.

I'd encourage you to continue to pursue this research though. You have very important questions.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:04 pm

I'm just thinking that since cisnegra's mother is a marine biologist, she has a wonderful resource there.

cisnegra, is this where you get all the information on crustations natural habitats, or from a personal liberary, or online. I haven't been able to turn up such detailed info online, but sometimes it's just about hitting the right search terms.

If you need multiple controlled enviroments to experiment with anything, I'll volenteer mine, if you can give me any step by step on what to do. I think we should be thinking this way, it's just the task seems overwhelming for someone like me, but I'd love to contribute, you may be onto something here. Wouldn't it be cool if a bunch of hobbiest found answers to keeping these guys better in captivity? May be someday one of us hobbiest will even breed them sucessfully.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:26 pm

The info I get ispartly from my mom, but more from her library, mine, and the local university libraries. She mostly does marine crustaceans, not really land dwellers like Coenobitas. I used to be a physics lab rat, till I quit to be a mom, so I tend to think about stuff in the strictly factual, logical kind of way, and I tend to be one of those who can't stop worrying at a problem till I've figured it out to my satisfaction. I'm starting to get everything together for some trials (saltwater first, then some other aspects), mom has said I can borrow the lab, long as I use my own equipment, and I have some of the LFS's keeping an eye out for cracked or ugly tanks for me to use. This is why I try not to buy the pets my daughter asked for. If it's this bad when she asked for a hermit crab in a plastic KK, think what it would turn into if she had asked for a bird!

troppo · Post by **troppo** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:02 pm

This post prolly won't fit in,and the info prolly not necessary,but I have been collecting seawater from my local beach for quite a few months.
Not to say though that real seawater is better than making it up yourself using aquarium salt or vice versa.
Just it's a free option for me. Saw Doc Wellfish aquarium salt(i think about 400/500gms) being sold for $10,would rather save myself the money

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:06 pm

Do dechlorinators remove the metals (eg. in IO)?

Willow · Post by **Willow** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:53 pm

I don't see how dechlorinator can remove anything, as it just stays right there in the water. Maybe it can neutralize ome metals? I don't know. All I know about dechlorinator is that it causes chlorine to dissipate into a gas form.

Anyway, back to the salt water: I put the Real Ocean into the crabitat, and they seem to like it. There wasn't a stampede to the dish, but they were in it more than before. I also tested the water in the hydrometer, and it has somewhat higher salinity than is recommended on the salt mix packages. I wondered about that, but I don't think it's a problem.

Also....I had no idea that salinity and water makeup could vary according to location and proximity to shore! I guess I figured that the ocean is the ocean, as long as it's not in an enclosed area (like a salt lake) that it would be the same. Although I don't know how to correlate that to caring for hermies. Since we don't really know their habits in the wild (like, do they drink from the ocean edge, or from tidepools?), we don't really know what the makeup of the salt water they use would ideally be. But it was very interesting.