I was kind of perusing the "archives" of the Hermit Crab forum here - searching certain key-words of interest - and I stumbled upon a little debate (not sure how long ago) about what salt is proper to use for conditioning the crabs' water.
Though some folks spoke against it, I use a saltwater conditioner by ZooMed. It comes in a little plastic "dripper" bottle. I use a "anti chlorinate" for the fresh water made by the same company.
Anyone have anything to say about this product? I tell you, since I've started using it, I've noticed a HUGE difference in my crabs longevity. Also, they molt better. I've NEVER had a successful molt until I started using this product. Since then I've had two flawless molts.
-Eric
The Salt Debate
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Guest
Topic author
I've seen it at the petstore but never used it. I use Instant ocean and mix it with dechlor water, keep it in a 2gal jug and fill when necessary.
I am VERY fortunate that our death rate has been extremely low. Thankfully we have only had 6 deaths total out of 90-some hermies in 7 months and the ones we did have were on rescue victim hermies that were in bad shape when we got them. Most deaths were due to PPS and happened within a few days of coming home from the pet store.
All molts (about 40) have been perfect except for our first one and then one molter being picked on by a straw. I am blaming myself for the problem with the first molter, as I believe it was a lack of saltwater. However, our little E's molt like crazy so that molt number may possibly be higher. All other molts have been perfect and most of the time the hermies come out brighter and more colorful. Especially the PPs.
I don't know anything about zoomed salt conditioner, but if it is made specifically for hermit crabs, then it is probably bad due to lack of knowledge (or not caring) by lovely corporate america making a buck off a disposable pet. Commercial foods for hermies are bad, so I am sure their salt is as well.
I am VERY fortunate that our death rate has been extremely low. Thankfully we have only had 6 deaths total out of 90-some hermies in 7 months and the ones we did have were on rescue victim hermies that were in bad shape when we got them. Most deaths were due to PPS and happened within a few days of coming home from the pet store.
All molts (about 40) have been perfect except for our first one and then one molter being picked on by a straw. I am blaming myself for the problem with the first molter, as I believe it was a lack of saltwater. However, our little E's molt like crazy so that molt number may possibly be higher. All other molts have been perfect and most of the time the hermies come out brighter and more colorful. Especially the PPs.
I don't know anything about zoomed salt conditioner, but if it is made specifically for hermit crabs, then it is probably bad due to lack of knowledge (or not caring) by lovely corporate america making a buck off a disposable pet. Commercial foods for hermies are bad, so I am sure their salt is as well.
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Guest
Topic author
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Guest
Topic author
If you have two sucessful molts that really is not what I could call a proven hypothisis, there would have to be many, many trials to gather enough data to say imperically "this is a good product".
If you were using no sea salt water before, yes you would see an improvment in molting. You'd have to look at any other conditions that may have created an improvment, like diet, substrate, humidity level, exctera.
The reason it's not recommended is that when tested using a hydrometer it does not have a saltinity that matches the ocean's saltinity, like many other brands do. That is not opinion, but a simple tested fact, and if you duplicated the test you would get the same results.
You may be able to get away with using this salt water for a hardy species that does not require a lot of saltinity in their shell water, but I would NEVER use this product for my straws.
If you were using no sea salt water before, yes you would see an improvment in molting. You'd have to look at any other conditions that may have created an improvment, like diet, substrate, humidity level, exctera.
The reason it's not recommended is that when tested using a hydrometer it does not have a saltinity that matches the ocean's saltinity, like many other brands do. That is not opinion, but a simple tested fact, and if you duplicated the test you would get the same results.
You may be able to get away with using this salt water for a hardy species that does not require a lot of saltinity in their shell water, but I would NEVER use this product for my straws.
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starmaiden
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:41 pm
- Location: Washington State
It's also extremely expensive compared to something like Oceanic, where a $4 bag makes 5 gallons of salt water that is the same salinity as ocean water and high quality enough to use in reef aquariums. I read somewhere the zoomed stuff comes out to about $28 per gallon, but I could be wrong. I would not use it with species that need lots of real ocean water, like Es, straws, and ruggies. 
Edited to add: The zoomed dechlorinator doesn't remove heavy metals as good as a quality fish dechlorinator and its also extremely expensive. You are better off buying a fish dechlor w/o slime coat for $1.50 a small bottle, enough to dechlorinate 50 gallons of water.
Edited to add: The zoomed dechlorinator doesn't remove heavy metals as good as a quality fish dechlorinator and its also extremely expensive. You are better off buying a fish dechlor w/o slime coat for $1.50 a small bottle, enough to dechlorinate 50 gallons of water.
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Willow
Topic author
What species of hermies do you have? What brand of salt water (if any) were you using before you bought the ZooMed stuff? How do you mix it? Is it still that alarming neon yellow color, or did they change the formula?
I personally tested the ZooMed Salt Water Conditioner Part 2 in a hydrometer (Instant Ocean brand, the kind used by reefkeepers) and found it to have, when mixed according to the directions, only 1/5 the salinity of natural sea water. This might be adequate salinity for PPs, but I do blame the product for the death of 1 Straw and 1 E, and I only used it for a week! There were no other possible reasons for their deaths. This small amount of salt is in no way adequate for the high salt requirements of the more "exotic" species of hermies.
If you weren't using any salt water before you got the ZooMed stuff, you would indeed see an improvement in your hermies' health, as even a little salt is better than none. But, I think you'd see even better results if you got a good marine salt, such as Oceanic or Red Sea, or, if you don't like to mix, you can get Real Ocean (actual filtered sea water). These products are also MUCH less expensive than the ZooMed stuff. Plus the fact that you'd avoid all those artificial colors in the ZooMed product.
In short, if it works for you and you don't mind the cost, go ahead and use it. But it definitely should NOT be recommended to new crabkeepers, especially if they have any exotics.
I have the dechlorinator, too. It seems to be the same product as ZooMed's "Repti-Safe", but it costs more. So, if you like it (I really have no educated opinion as to how well it works), buy the Repti-Safe and save yourself a couple bucks.
I personally tested the ZooMed Salt Water Conditioner Part 2 in a hydrometer (Instant Ocean brand, the kind used by reefkeepers) and found it to have, when mixed according to the directions, only 1/5 the salinity of natural sea water. This might be adequate salinity for PPs, but I do blame the product for the death of 1 Straw and 1 E, and I only used it for a week! There were no other possible reasons for their deaths. This small amount of salt is in no way adequate for the high salt requirements of the more "exotic" species of hermies.
If you weren't using any salt water before you got the ZooMed stuff, you would indeed see an improvement in your hermies' health, as even a little salt is better than none. But, I think you'd see even better results if you got a good marine salt, such as Oceanic or Red Sea, or, if you don't like to mix, you can get Real Ocean (actual filtered sea water). These products are also MUCH less expensive than the ZooMed stuff. Plus the fact that you'd avoid all those artificial colors in the ZooMed product.
In short, if it works for you and you don't mind the cost, go ahead and use it. But it definitely should NOT be recommended to new crabkeepers, especially if they have any exotics.
I have the dechlorinator, too. It seems to be the same product as ZooMed's "Repti-Safe", but it costs more. So, if you like it (I really have no educated opinion as to how well it works), buy the Repti-Safe and save yourself a couple bucks.
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Guest
Topic author
If the "exotics", as you call them, are that difficult to provide for - require that much "formulating" - then perhaps we shouldn't be keeping them as pets.
In fact, despite the fact that I own hermit crabs, every day I draw closer to the opinion that maybe none of us should be keeping them as pets - they're just better off in the wild.
In any case, in answer to the "scientist" who challenged my proclaimation that the ZooMed product was effective and healthy: I've tried several different products and the ZooMed one yielded healthy molts. The saltwater is the ONLY change I've made in the habitat, since all other aspects were already up to snuff. For a long time I offered my hermit crabs no salt water at all, as I was misled by several "care" books that said it was unnecessary to provide them this. What a farce!
Here's something else that will aggravate all of you - not that that's what I'm trying to do, but honestly, sometimes it's alarming how readily you all will condemn certain products based on your own uncontrolled studies, yet wave a finger at me when I applaud one under the same circumstances: Painted shells? Yeah - they're not harmful to the crabs; if (a) the shells are painted with an appropriate product that won't peel or emit that noxious paint odor, and (b) the shells are not painted while the crab is inside it!
I've had a crab live for MANY years in several different painted shells. Do you know what eventually killed him? BAD SALTWATER! No lie.
In fact, despite the fact that I own hermit crabs, every day I draw closer to the opinion that maybe none of us should be keeping them as pets - they're just better off in the wild.
In any case, in answer to the "scientist" who challenged my proclaimation that the ZooMed product was effective and healthy: I've tried several different products and the ZooMed one yielded healthy molts. The saltwater is the ONLY change I've made in the habitat, since all other aspects were already up to snuff. For a long time I offered my hermit crabs no salt water at all, as I was misled by several "care" books that said it was unnecessary to provide them this. What a farce!
Here's something else that will aggravate all of you - not that that's what I'm trying to do, but honestly, sometimes it's alarming how readily you all will condemn certain products based on your own uncontrolled studies, yet wave a finger at me when I applaud one under the same circumstances: Painted shells? Yeah - they're not harmful to the crabs; if (a) the shells are painted with an appropriate product that won't peel or emit that noxious paint odor, and (b) the shells are not painted while the crab is inside it!
I've had a crab live for MANY years in several different painted shells. Do you know what eventually killed him? BAD SALTWATER! No lie.
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Willow
Topic author
I don't think they need a whole lot of "formulating", they just need real salt water. The ZooMed product is not real salt water.hideousnorth wrote:If the "exotics", as you call them, are that difficult to provide for - require that much "formulating" - then perhaps we shouldn't be keeping them as pets.
I, too, really think that they would be better off in the wild, but since they're already captured and can't be returned (captive wild animals cannot be returned to the wild because they may have been exposed to pathogens while in captivity and can wipe out the entire wild population if re-introduced), I may as well give them a good home. I do feel a higher responsibility toward wild animal pets, to give them a decent habitat, as close to the wild as I can get it.
You didn't answer; what brands of salt water have you used in the past? How did you mix them? I'm interested to know which brands didn't work out for you.
As for painted shells, you may be right. I do not object to painted shells on the grounds that they may be harmful (I have had a few crabs that refused to move out of painted shells for a long time, and they're still with me); I object to them because they reduce the crab to being a toy, and encourage impulse buying by small children with hot-pink KKs, thereby sentencing the poor crab to a slow and miserable death in a tiny plastic box.
Anyway, I've had lots of successful moults, using a lot of different brands of salt water. I did find that my Es were prone to bad moults when I was using Instant Ocean, and the ZooMed seemed to kill that E and Straw, but other then those 2 instances, the salt water brand didn't seem to matter. I've found that the biggest factor in having good moults was feeding my hermies a fresh-food diet, instead of "hermit crab pellets". After all, there are no pellets lying around on the beach in the wild.
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Guest
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Well, I think that I'm the "scientist" you were "trying honestly" not to aggravate, although I'm not sure, if it was me, I do have a screen name. I also was just giving my opinion to a question that you asked, not challenging anyone or anything. You asked how can you say it's bad even though I've had good molts with it, and I was trying to answer your question. 
I would not describe any of the members on this site as "condemning", although everyone has their own styles of communication as well as diverse opinions.
You are certainly welcome to feel no one should own any exotics, and you are welcome to never purchase any, or even species common around this part of the world, namely PPs, if you feel that strongly about it (adoption may be a better option for you). I've certainly seen that discussed very often, and as you were searching the site you could easily find that debate again if you need any help making a decision, I'm not really interested in getting into that discussion with you.
You are also welcome to use whatever salt water solution you feel works for you, even one that doesn't have a consesus on it's quality and is more expensive, if that's what you wish. Personally, I don't find your evidence compelling enough to make me switch. People also can have several sucessful molts over a peroid of years keeping crabs in a KK with no humidity and no substrate, but I would not recommend that care to anyone or switch to those methods.
As far as I'm concerned with the painted shells you'll never see my name on any thread saying that I know painted shells are toxic crab killers. I think they are ugly, silly and undignifed. I also have seen compelling evdience that crabs HAVE been in them when they are painted, and generally speaking I would think consuming paint MAY be harzardous, just logically thinking, paint consumption is not something nature may have prepared them for. You will never see my name in any thread pretending to be any kind of expert on that subject, at the same time I think it is by no means a rediculous idea.
I also have seen the majority of painted shells I have bought crabs in ARE peeling and flaking off, so I'm not sure what kind of paint you are referring to that doesn't peel and flake, but I sure haven't see it. I also don't know what methods are used to get the crabs into these shells, and until I have a supplier telling me how it's been done humainly, I can't be sure it's being done in a way that I would approve of. There's more than one reason not to like painted shells, and it's not always because they are toxic.
When you say "you all" you are lumping in everyone in the HCA together when we all have differnt thoughts on the subject and you couldn't possilbly know them all, and I think really discrediting the varied and respectfully articulated ideas of the members of this site.
I would not describe any of the members on this site as "condemning", although everyone has their own styles of communication as well as diverse opinions.
You are certainly welcome to feel no one should own any exotics, and you are welcome to never purchase any, or even species common around this part of the world, namely PPs, if you feel that strongly about it (adoption may be a better option for you). I've certainly seen that discussed very often, and as you were searching the site you could easily find that debate again if you need any help making a decision, I'm not really interested in getting into that discussion with you.
You are also welcome to use whatever salt water solution you feel works for you, even one that doesn't have a consesus on it's quality and is more expensive, if that's what you wish. Personally, I don't find your evidence compelling enough to make me switch. People also can have several sucessful molts over a peroid of years keeping crabs in a KK with no humidity and no substrate, but I would not recommend that care to anyone or switch to those methods.
As far as I'm concerned with the painted shells you'll never see my name on any thread saying that I know painted shells are toxic crab killers. I think they are ugly, silly and undignifed. I also have seen compelling evdience that crabs HAVE been in them when they are painted, and generally speaking I would think consuming paint MAY be harzardous, just logically thinking, paint consumption is not something nature may have prepared them for. You will never see my name in any thread pretending to be any kind of expert on that subject, at the same time I think it is by no means a rediculous idea.
I also have seen the majority of painted shells I have bought crabs in ARE peeling and flaking off, so I'm not sure what kind of paint you are referring to that doesn't peel and flake, but I sure haven't see it. I also don't know what methods are used to get the crabs into these shells, and until I have a supplier telling me how it's been done humainly, I can't be sure it's being done in a way that I would approve of. There's more than one reason not to like painted shells, and it's not always because they are toxic.
When you say "you all" you are lumping in everyone in the HCA together when we all have differnt thoughts on the subject and you couldn't possilbly know them all, and I think really discrediting the varied and respectfully articulated ideas of the members of this site.
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Guest
Topic author
I don't have a whole lot to add but I'm glad this llittle correspondance has taken place as I was on my way out tomorrow to pick up some (more) of the zoomed salt water drops! I didn't know the 1/5 salinity ratio. Good to know. And as for my experience with painted shells, as safe as they may seem, the sand and other fine grit substrates acts like sand paper and will eventually deteriorate and chip the paint. After I brought Sunny home, who was in a chipping painted shell, I never saw her eat anything for the first 2 weeks I had her but paint chips!! Everytime I turned around, she had paint chips hanging for her mouth! She's still in the shell but I have gone through great time and effort to chip off the paint myself. It's almost all gone. And none of us claim to be scientist, not that I've heard anyway-but the best source of knowledge is careful observation, deductive reasoning, hypothesis and finally conclusion and ultimately the sharing of that conclusion. That's what were all here to do, isn't it? I know I am a much better crabber for this process as it has been shared on a scale such as found here at the HCA. Alright, I'm done now. Promise- 
!!
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Guest
Topic author
My worries with painted shells... other than they are ugly, and as willow said about them being marketed as children's toys.... Isn't that I am sure they are unsafe but that I am not sure they ARE safe becasue crabs do eat shells... if there is paint on them they are eating the paint and that I always thought shells were naturally porous... the paint fills the tiny little holes and what does that do to them? Where they using those tiny little holes as vents? I don't know but what I do know is that they use natural shells in the wild so I will only offer them natural shells.
About your salt water ... what are the ingredients? I am not familiar with the product.
I only use Marine saltwater because trace elements & essential minerals so the crabs will be able to get what minerals they need that I may be missing in their diet... kind of comparable to a vitamin for humans.
If you want someone to try to convince you that you are doing things wrong it's not going to be me... I am only telling how I do things and I think that is the spirit of most of us here.
About your salt water ... what are the ingredients? I am not familiar with the product.
I only use Marine saltwater because trace elements & essential minerals so the crabs will be able to get what minerals they need that I may be missing in their diet... kind of comparable to a vitamin for humans.
If you want someone to try to convince you that you are doing things wrong it's not going to be me... I am only telling how I do things and I think that is the spirit of most of us here.
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Guest
Topic author
Well, thanks everyone, for your opinions and clarifications - and I'm not being saracastic, I do mean it.
I got way off topic from the original reason I posted - I just wanted to know why so many of you didn't care for the ZooMed water conditioner. Now I know, and I disagree, and so I will continue to use it. If I am able to link it to the death or illness of any of my crabs, I'll certainly come back on here and announce myself a fool (I'm not too proud to admit if I'm wrong).
Until then, I've no reason to discontinue use, and no reason to try anything different, as I am an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" type of person.
In answer to the person who wanted to know which other brands I've tried - I don't know. It was so long ago, and I really wasn't thinking at the time that the salt-water was the problem. I just know that I've always had bad molts, and when one day my crab emerged with a perfect molt, and then another, I thought: "okay, what have I been doing differently?". It was the saltwater.
I will say that I BELIEVE - no proof, only BELIEVE - that the salt water solutions you're picking up at aquatics stores is a slow poison. In the wild, hermit crabs do not have access to saltwater with that level of potency - it's almost always diluted. Think it about - every other animal that needs that much salt in their water is an animal that actually LIVES in the water!
Just an opinion, don't all jump down my throat!
-Eric
I got way off topic from the original reason I posted - I just wanted to know why so many of you didn't care for the ZooMed water conditioner. Now I know, and I disagree, and so I will continue to use it. If I am able to link it to the death or illness of any of my crabs, I'll certainly come back on here and announce myself a fool (I'm not too proud to admit if I'm wrong
). Until then, I've no reason to discontinue use, and no reason to try anything different, as I am an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" type of person.
In answer to the person who wanted to know which other brands I've tried - I don't know. It was so long ago, and I really wasn't thinking at the time that the salt-water was the problem. I just know that I've always had bad molts, and when one day my crab emerged with a perfect molt, and then another, I thought: "okay, what have I been doing differently?". It was the saltwater.
I will say that I BELIEVE - no proof, only BELIEVE - that the salt water solutions you're picking up at aquatics stores is a slow poison. In the wild, hermit crabs do not have access to saltwater with that level of potency - it's almost always diluted. Think it about - every other animal that needs that much salt in their water is an animal that actually LIVES in the water!
Just an opinion, don't all jump down my throat!
-Eric
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Guest
Topic author
Just as another clarification, to avoid confusion for any new crabber reading this, levels of saltinity that match ocean water DO NOT kill our crabs. A fact can be proved or disproved, an opinion or beleif can't be, so I'm sure I won't change hideousnorth's mind here, but for anyone else intersted.....
Crabs mix the fresh and salt water in their shell water to reach the correct level themselves. This balence is called (by science) osmoregulation. They will use saltwater that is an unusually higher saltinity, and science has also found their shell water is only a few degrees lower than the saltinity of the ocean, ocean saltinity is 36% while a crabs shell water is 32% for PPs, for example. Many brands also have trace minerals as dehiderated real ocean water (API for example) that can not be duplicated synthetically.
If they only got salt water and no fresh water, that would be toxic, but salt water with 36% saltinity or higher does not harm them.
Crabs mix the fresh and salt water in their shell water to reach the correct level themselves. This balence is called (by science) osmoregulation. They will use saltwater that is an unusually higher saltinity, and science has also found their shell water is only a few degrees lower than the saltinity of the ocean, ocean saltinity is 36% while a crabs shell water is 32% for PPs, for example. Many brands also have trace minerals as dehiderated real ocean water (API for example) that can not be duplicated synthetically.
If they only got salt water and no fresh water, that would be toxic, but salt water with 36% saltinity or higher does not harm them.
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Gorthaur
Topic author
Two successful molts is absolutely nothing. Use it for a year straight with two dozen crabs and see how they do. I honestly don't know that it's bad, but it makes a lot more sense to me to use something like Oceanic, which has been scientifically tested and shown to be among the best.hideousnorth wrote:Yeah, how can you say it's bad?! I have no problems with it, and it's proven itself effective and non-damaging! 2 successful molts can't be wrong!
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starmaiden
- Posts: 419
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