Misuse of the word "evergreen"

[RebsCritters]

I've seen this in other places as well and it seems to be a pretty common mixup. Evergreen does not strictly refer to pine type trees, rather it describes a much larger and more varied group of plants that bear leaves throughout the year, regardless of the season or geographical location. There are tropical evergreen plants.

Pine type trees, as listed in the unsafe/unpopular foods thread, are in the family of "conifers" specifically.

[Hermias_mom]

When I first read that list, I didn't consider pine an evergreen, so I thought it was okay to feed to the crabs. I'm glad I figured out what folks meant pretty quickly.

If you think the safe/unsafe food list should be updated, please send a PM to one of our moderators. They would probably want to know. I found "evergreen" confusing at first myself. The only evergreens I think of by that designation are cedars.

[soilentgringa]

I've seen this in other places as well and it seems to be a pretty common mixup. Evergreen does not strictly refer to pine type trees, rather it describes a much larger and more varied group of plants that bear leaves throughout the year, regardless of the season or geographical location. There are tropical evergreen plants.

Pine type trees, as listed in the unsafe/unpopular foods thread, are in the family of "conifers" specifically.

Evergreens include most species of conifers with the exception of larch.

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[RebsCritters]

Evergreens include most species of conifers with the exception of larch.

That may be, but to say all evergreens are unsafe is inaccurate if only those of the conifer (+larch) family are specified, as there are other evergreens that do not fit into that category and may be perfectly safe.

If you think the safe/unsafe food list should be updated, please send a PM to one of our moderators. They would probably want to know.

Do I PM the OP or any mod? Not sure who has permissions to do what/how active people are, so I figured in the meantime this might help any new-comers.

[Hermias_mom]

If you're using Tapatalk, maybe it's not visible, but Soilentgringa is a moderator. So you could PM her. Or just quote her and respond here. Up to you. I don't know enough about tree classifications to have any more relevant input.

[soilentgringa]

Evergreens include most species of conifers with the exception of larch.

That may be, but to say all evergreens are unsafe is inaccurate if only those of the conifer (+larch) family are specified, as there are other evergreens that do not fit into that category and may be perfectly safe.

If you think the safe/unsafe food list should be updated, please send a PM to one of our moderators. They would probably want to know.

Do I PM the OP or any mod? Not sure who has permissions to do what/how active people are, so I figured in the meantime this might help any new-comers.

I am currently the only active admin and AussieJJDude the only active mod.

JediMasterThrash can also be contacted but I cannot tell you how long it would be before there is a response.

Since the phenols in the sap of these trees is what is toxic and crab tanks are enclosed spaces, it is better not to take the risk of using them at all.

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[RebsCritters]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but again, clarifying that other evergreen plants exist, which are native to tropical environments (some of which are commonly sold as household plants-- I currently own a few), that shouldn't necessarily be on that list simply because they are lumped in with evergreens. If they must be on the unsafe list (for scientifically backed safety reasons) then they can be listed separately, just as the others are.
Currently, it is inaccurate and it would seem important to provide members with correct information so that we have a better basis of understanding to build from and avoid possible issues due to confusion

[soilentgringa]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but again, clarifying that other evergreen plants exist, which are native to tropical environments (some of which are commonly sold as household plants-- I currently own a few), that shouldn't necessarily be on that list simply because they are lumped in with evergreens. If they must be on the unsafe list (for scientifically backed safety reasons) then they can be listed separately, just as the others are.
Currently, it is inaccurate and it would seem important to provide members with correct information so that we have a better basis of understanding to build from and avoid possible issues due to confusion

If you have the time and are willing to research all of this and present your findings; you can send your research to JediMasterThrash and ask them to update the list.

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[RebsCritters]

Alrighty, will do.

[aussieJJDude]

Sorry to sound rude... but what exactly does the list say... evergreens? Tbh i havent read it in a few years but i always thought it said in brackets conifers after evergreen.
So your looking for an update yes... mostly in specifying if it is safe or not, basically more detailed? Which is fine and something i have no problem with but to the new owner listing each individual species is going to scare a newbie more than a general sweeping statement. Over the years i have seen a few posts questioning pine and such safe for crabs, and HCA does encourage such topics even if we have it in our stickies. We may refer to them for the OP but usually a number of responses also list why when how and so on.

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[RebsCritters]

Sorry to sound rude... but what exactly does the list say... evergreens? Tbh i havent read it in a few years but i always thought it said in brackets conifers after evergreen.
So your looking for an update yes... mostly in specifying if it is safe or not, basically more detailed? Which is fine and something i have no problem with but to the new owner listing each individual species is going to scare a newbie more than a general sweeping statement. Over the years i have seen a few posts questioning pine and such safe for crabs, and HCA does encourage such topics even if we have it in our stickies. We may refer to them for the OP but usually a number of responses also list why when how and so on.

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"Evergreen (cedar, juniper, etc.)" --copied/pasted directly from the list.

Was just asking to have it changed to say conifers in place of evergreen, if trees such as cedar and juniper (etc.) are the main concern. Evergreen is more of an umbrella term for any plant, not specifically trees, that do not lose their foliage with the change of the seasons. There are many tropical evergreens which are commonly sold as "exotic" household plants.
Leaving it ambiguous by saying "cedar, juniper, etc" could lead to accidents that could easily be avoided by clearly listing the trees within the conifer group, but I understand if that would be a lot. I was initially overwhelmed by these long lists myself when I first started.
A thought I had, to make it simpler for new people to understand and remember, would be to add a sentence that says something along the lines of: "If it reminds you of pine/Christmas trees, it's most likely a conifer and should be avoided".
The less research a newbie has to do, with info they can remember easily, will help reduce the beginning overwhelm and keep crabs safe with accurate info right from the start

"The great majority are trees, though a few are shrubs. Examples include cedars, Douglas firs, cypresses, firs, junipers, kauri, larches, pines, hemlocks, redwoods, spruces, and yews.[1]"

This is taken from Wikipedia under "pinophyta" (aka conifers).

[RebsCritters]

Sorry to sound rude...

Not rude at all. I'm extremely difficult to offend and love open discussion.
I realize I sound like a total stiff when I talk facts (an old friend once called me a robot, haha), but I've got thick skin and a pretty good sense of humor so, no worries.

[aussieJJDude]

Nah i was replying at like 12am so my brain was kind of dead... and i knew that i wasnt really checking for is it nice or not...
Okey, yes. I do agree the wording can be upgraded, its not important to do so, but its a good idea in actually labelling what good and not.
I personally believe a long list is a big np no, as fpr the new crabber that came home from the beach or dumped with them, for your kids and are easy to care for; your not looking for something complex. Even at the start of our crabbing adventures we were all confused tbh, and long lists are going to make it worse.

And then theres the other problem of conifers actually being unsafe or not since crabbers have fed pine needles abd cones for example with little to no health concern.... regardless, im an enclosed system conifers can be detrimental to the health of many species, so the change of listing might help reduce the eventual stuff ups.

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[soilentgringa]

Honestly I see both sides of this.

Maybe the evergreen research could be linked in the guide, as it's own page?

I remember that there are trees in the crabs natural habitat that they hang out on all the time and of course the half logs that are a constant source of controversy...

There are groups out there that tell people those logs kill crabs but of course correllation never implies causation so it could have been so many other variables.

I have to admit that I was super burned out last year and the loss of all my research was a hard blow. I will reach out to my contacts again, like my Navy friend who was an MPA monitor at Monterray Bay who had an amazing amount of knowledge regarding shore conservation and why it is bad to take shells and sand from the beach.

I really would appreciate help with research. I may create a Dropbox just for crab related research so that it can be in one place and accessible for all the researchers, so that if someone's legally blind parent knocks soda on their laptop with an SSD and not a removable hard drive again....(cough Dad cough), we still have all that compiled info.

JJ you have a great amount of fish and plant knowlege.

I just want for HCA to be at it's best and most current and I know everyone else does too.


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[LadyJinglyJones]

Sorry, I'm late to the party - busy week!

@RebsCritters - were you planning to look into evergreens/conifers/whatever concerning chemicals harmful to crebsies?

If so, I'm postin' a link here to a (I will mention longish - weighing in at 53 pages) 2013 open access article about plant defences against herbivorous insects. There is a section about terpenes (buried in there) which describes the chemical secretions of coniferous (and some other) plants that mimic the hormone ecdysone (which is of course the moulting hormone in both insects & crustaceans), thereby stunting or otherwise confusing the animal's development.

There are, of course, many many many insects that have evolved immunities to these defences, some also sequestering plant toxins to ward off predators; there is even very convincing evidence that Birgus latro, the robber crab, sequesters the toxic, digitalis-like-chemical of a seed it eats, storing the chemical in its hepatopancreas (a.k.a. the dark meat). Robber crab consumption has been linked with human fatalities in this plant's range. Many human populations living in these regions know to starve the live crabs for some weeks prior to eating, but tourists have fallen prey to their own ignorance of local custom on a number of occasions. (Fun fact.)

Incidentally, Coenobita clypeatus eats the fruit of the manchineel tree (Biology of the Land Crabs. Buggren & McMahon, 1983. pp 383 - can't remember who they were citing, but I can find it if anyone really cares), which is also deadly toxic to humans. Even the sap can blind humans for several days. Manchineel is in the spurge family, Euphorbiasceae, which is a large group of plants containing many others that also produce interesting toxins, some of them diterpenes. Many of them look like cacti, but aren't -But I digress. (So much digression. It isn't even funny how badly I can't stay on topic. Man. )

Obviously one can only make educated guesses about complex animal-plant chemical interactions unless said interactions are studied closely. We're making guesses.

Okay, blah blah, below is the link - PM me if it doesn't work & you need the PDF, or if you would like me to point out sections I think might be relevant... I've read certain sections that interested me, but by no means the whole thing. I've recently engaged a chem enthusiast/masters student to help explicate stuff that's way over my head (i.e. most of it).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... po=9.29204


Edit: scroll down to "4.1.1.7. Terpenoids" in the paper for the info I think is most promising for a start. "Phytoecdysones" is the name for the chemicals I listed above.