Food analysis

[kgbenson]

Anyone out there doing their own analysis of foods? Anyone who makes foods for sale doing a Guaranteed analysis?

I haven't seen much of that occurring and I thought, it may sound more expensive than it is to folks.

For instance. At the Dairy One Labs you can get a guaranteed analysis on a mix for $21 bucks. $21.00 Guarantee Analysis - DM, CP, Crude Fiber, Crude Fat (ether extract), and Ash. This is that label that is supposed to be on all pet foods.

OR, you can learn an awful lot about the minerals in the foods you feed for $28 dollars. $28.00 Mineral Ingredient or Mixture - DM, Crude Protein, Ca, P, Mg, K, Na, Fe, Zn, Cu, Mn, Mo, Co, S and Cl. This package must be used for all mineral mixtures and individual mineral ingredients. Minerals are analyzed in duplicate and the average is reported.

I am just curious about a few things, does anyone know what levels of various nutrients they are truly offering their crabs? Do any of the folks making food mixes hereabouts know what it really in their mixes nutritionally? Does anyone consider such information valuable?

Keith

[wodesorel]

You know, I look at those labels religiously when it comes to my cats, just because I like them to have a moderate fiber diet and a food with as much protein as possible. I don't think I ever have for my fish, and I never buy store-bought crab food. When it comes to the smaller critters in the house I go straight to the ingredients instead and compare those. I have no idea what would be "good" percentages to look for. With cats, the numbers have been studied for years and there are known risks and health affects associated with them.

Without baseline information to compare a bought diet to, how would we use a guaranteed analysis? Has anyone ever analysed a wild crab's diet to see what they should be getting daily?

As for minerals, I think the same question applies - how much do they need, and of what? Once that is known, then knowing what's in a mineral blend would become much more important.

Great information is plentiful out there for dogs and cats, but extremely scarce for smaller pets. (I'm still trying to find a consensus of what to feed my geriatric Betta.... There's so much mixed info out there!) Now, if there are studies available to compare crab diets to, then I would love to see numbers!

[suebee]

Hi Keith, All the foods i sell are human grade so i keep all the labels in a book and try to keep a good mix in the tank at all times. I never feed the same foods two days in a row. Not all the crabs eat the same thing i dont do a mix of the items i leave them separate in my tank. I do try to make sure i offer all the food groups, calcium and the mineral supplement from the hermit crab patch each day. I also give my guys worm castings and crushed oyster shell every day. I try not to do to many "treats" that dont have much to offer nutritiously like popcorn. I know the value of each of the foods i give them but even after a failed attempt i dont know who ate what how much and when. I would love to see a make up of what they actually need. I really feel that they know what they need. As an example One crab who is about to molt seems to eat lots of worm castings, crushed oyster shell, salt water and coco nut without touching the other foods for a few days then i know he will be going down for a molt soon. I would think that at different times, premolt, after molt or other stages they need different nutrients. I have lots of hand written notes from the past 10 years where i tried to see what species ate what and the color changes after molts but with shell changes and size changes i lost site of who is who on some of the crabs..
Its a on going attempt. With the violas in a different tank im keeping notes on them right now and hopefully will get some good research out of that.
Anyone else have any information they can provide?

[kgbenson]

Without baseline information to compare a bought diet to, how would we use a guaranteed analysis?

Right now - just to know what you are feeding. If you are feeding a consistent 60% protein, and your crabs are not living as long as someone who is feeding less protein - you might want o make an adjustment. OR if you are noticing a problem, at this point you would have a hard time deciding if there was a nutritional link or not. If you don't understand the make-up of what you are feeding, you may be missing out on something. I am not saying that this information would be as usable and straight forward as say with cat food, but it would be a start. Don't get me wrong - I haven't done it either . . . yet.

Has anyone ever analyzed a wild crab's diet to see what they should be getting daily?

Analyzing a wild crabs diet will only tell you what that are eating out of what is available right there. It may or may not reflect an optimal diet.
IT is not a bad idea, but has it's limitations as well - all things do. Generally you might start there, but then the gold standard is to raise the animals on a set diet and monitor their growth and the incidence of disease.

I think that the best place to start would be shrimp diets, and go from there. Or, pick some levels from what you feel is a decent feeding regimen, and monitor the animals and refer back to the levels if there is a problem.

As for minerals, I think the same question applies - how much do they need, and of what? Once that is known, then knowing what's in a mineral blend would become much more important.

It would - though there are other values to such analyses. Over time you may come to understand what that level is - if you are monitoring carefully and analyzing material that you are feeding. Also, if there are issues and you notice that the overall amount of X mineral in your rations is now 3 times higher then before, you may have something to look into. Without a baseline, you have nothing. In all honesty this is not something I would expect the end user to be doing, but rather the people who sell foods they claim are nutritious. It would seem that since the animals requirements are not known well, that producing a product that is also unknown would only compound the inaccuracy of any statements as to how good a food is.

Now, if there are studies available to compare crab diets to, then I would love to see numbers!

So would I. I was just wondering if anyone was taking measurements and paying attention to it within the group. I would love to see if the people selling food do, and if they know what they are selling from a nutrition standpoint.

Keith

[kgbenson]

I really feel that they know what they need.

For most species (in fact any of the one's I know that have been studied) appetites and the ability to select a balanced ration is something that only works when that animal is confronted with a situation where the available food mirrors the situation in which the species had evolved. Otherwise they tend to eat certain things that are normally not abundant by necessary to excess.

Look at people. 10K years ago, Protein, energy and salt were hard to come by. So we developed and apatite for things like simple sugars, fats, proteins and salts so that we would invest time looking for them and be driven to consume them. Well, nowadays we can have them in extraordinary abundance in most 1st world countries and while we are living longer, we are certainly feeling the brunt of the extra calories and salt.

In other words, animals will only pick a "prefect" diet if the buffet is arrange d in a certain way. If you still doubt it, walk into the nearest Kindergarten class with a plate of yummy steamed broccoli and a tray of cupcakes extra frosting. Any bets as to what the kids select?

Of course some animals will be better at this innate nutritional wisdom than others. My bride likes many of the foods that are good for her, and without thinking too much about it eats a very good diet. Me, not so much. Granted she is smarter, but in this instance we are talking about appetite and drive, not smarts in the traditional human sense.

Keith

[suebee]

I would take the cupcakes..I put out quite a choice every night and i find some crabs seem to go for certain things. That one PP that got really purple was a coco nut hound. He also grew more then most crabs during molting, i think that might be due to the fats in the coco nut. I do try to watch to see who eats what. Now that i feed at the same time daily and take out the food in the am, they all come to eat around the same time and i do get to watch the daily feeding. That has been a awsome change, I love to watch them eat. If i could measure how much and how often I would. Also I find that the temp and humidity changes what they eat. In the winter when it was colder they seemed to want things that were more protein and now they are liking the flowers more. If you have a idea of how I could measure or monitor it more, Id love some ideas.

[wodesorel]

In other words, animals will only pick a "prefect" diet if the buffet is arrange d in a certain way. If you still doubt it, walk into the nearest Kindergarten class with a plate of yummy steamed broccoli and a tray of cupcakes extra frosting. Any bets as to what the kids select?

It's really hard to judge whether or not a crab is a good weight. I mean, I try and peak at their abdomens when they change shells, but it's not like I can just go and ask their dress size if they're being shy. I think the only way to measure the health of a crab is whether or not it dies during a molt - and that doesn't say much since it's so hard to tell what each one is eating.

I don't think it's true that all animals will choose junk food if given the chance. Humans aside, in a house with 30 cats I get to witness this first hand every day. All of the cats get the same exact food and are kept in the same exact conditions - all are spayed or neutered as well. Buffet style is the only type of dinner we offer! Even though they should all be the same weight-wise, they really aren't. About 50% are perfect weight, 25% are overweight and 25% are obese. (Not ideal, but even after two years on a restricted OM diet before we had too many cats, my original three cats never shed a pound.) The weight classes are spread equally among male and female, and among age groups as well. I

I have to wonder if there's crabs that behave the same way - some are programmed to overeat, while others eat just enough.

[kgbenson]

I don't think it's true that all animals will choose junk food if given the chance.

Not junk foods - just foods that, in the environment they evolved in were important enough and/or scarce enough that those animals that spent a little extra time looking for them did better, on average and left a great number of descendants. It is only junk food when you eat it to excess.

in a house with 30 cats

Even though they should all be the same weight-wise, they really aren't. About 50% are perfect weight, 25% are overweight and 25% are obese. (Not ideal, but even after two years on a restricted OM diet before we had too many cats, my original three cats never shed a pound.) The weight classes are spread equally among male and female, and among age groups as well.

It is difficult to get weight off a cat. It can often be done but it can take a long time. 30 cats?!? Um, Wow.

I have to wonder if there's crabs that behave the same way - some are programmed to overeat, while others eat just enough.

Probably, Mother nature abhors a monoculture. Then issue of appetites and such is a near universal thing. Most animals eat day to day based on a few satiety cues like gut fill, circulating digestive hormones, glucose levels etc. Over time they tend (note the term tend) to eat to their metabolic demands or as is more often the case, somewhat above their metabolic demands. You experience with your cats aside (and it sounds about right for the set up you have) I have input on the nutrition of a pretty significant array of animals and I can tell you with vanishingly few exceptions, we spend more time preventing obesity and sub-selection of an unbalanced diet from an otherwise balanced ration, than we do fattening anyone up.

It makes sense when you play the game of life in the wild - but in captivity the situation is different. In the case of hermit crabs, they are confined, and have little work to do. They are given a variety of foods, unlimited caloric intake and an ability to alter their ration to their liking almost whenever they want to. On the surface this may seem like a 100% win:win deal, but there is and can be a down side. Perhaps some molt failures occur because of metabolic imbalances secondary to nutritional deficiencies and excesses? I don't know, and because the work has not been done neither does any one else. I just think it is worth pondering for serious crab keepers and is something that people should pay attention to.

If there are trends in your population, but you don't know what kind of nutrition your crabs are really getting, you cannot take nutrition into account. I don't mean everyone needs to be a scientist and a nutritionist, I just think there are a few people here with an interest in such things.

Keith

[suebee]

I just want to add, from the time i started giving foods not mixed, putting them out in tiny bits next to each other but not mixing them (its been a few years, i can check my notes to see how many) Ive not had any molting issues except when I chose to switch to more EE in my tank. That was the only time I lost crabs during molt. I switched back to a 5:1 ratio of sand to core and im back to great molts. I still think that somehow they crave what they need at the time. Offering multi items seems to give them different nutrients to chose from. Maybe ive just been lucky but I hope my notes after more years will show more.
I try to keep a moon calender and on there i keep activity, shell changes, molting and what they seem to be eating the most of on that too. Im hoping to see what changes the moon has with them too. I know the moon effects the blue claw crabs ( they are the ones I bread and eat..lol) and the tides so I think ill find some ways it effects the Hermit crabs too.
This time of year would be mating season for some crabs and I have seen activity in my tank that seems to be mating too. But thats another subject and we should stay with food in this thread. However I think if a crab is preparing to have eggs she might eat differently too.

[wodesorel]

30 cats?!? Um, Wow.

Not to hijack, but I don't want anyone thinking I'm totally nuts! Both my hubby and me, while not together, were foster parents and cat manager at different times for a local shelter. So we each were taking home "unadoptable" cats that had health and behavioral problems. Having 12 cats each wasn't bad. Moving in together and not being able to really rehome any of them because of their issues became fun... That and needy cats have a way of finding their way to our doorstep.... Most of them aren't "perfect" so the local shelters won't help us (not even the one he works for) and trying to find good homes right now on our own when there's a flood of unwanted cats is really hard. I really wish we didn't have all the fur-balls... I realllllly wish.

[Leonidas]

kgbenson,

hi, you remind me of this post. Few days ago i was searching in HCA about food, found this post, want to join but kinda forget. Today just saw you reply, remind me to this page.


Sorry too i'm not try to hijack seriously, it gives me on a thought
Can i connect your topic with crab's longevity & health ?
- It's very hard to do nutrition research, concerning with longevity and health. We never know what those crabs do / did when they are at wildlife. Do all crabs really able to select their own food which are good / bad for them ? or maybe they just eat whatever they found / passing by ?
- There might be a selective behavior too / or natural behavior to choose some food which they want to eat, say, when a crab is on a pile of garbage with many kind of leftover food. How can we know if a crab may choose a coconut or a butter cake ? assume if the crab choose a butter cake, on what base does he/she does it ? nutrition needs ? or just a personal taste ?
- i don't think it's possible unless, you monitor them all time (they may just walk 100 feet and pick on many stuff along the way), or keep them and monitor when they eat (but if keep them in a place meaning we neglect the natural-factor / freedom-to-choose factor)
- An example is a dog. I own few dogs, and seeing their curiousity and eating behavior, i can suspect (though not sure), dogs may have better chance of longevity when they are with human because we can control what's good to eat for them (based on already many info) and keep them away from dangerous "food" such as chicken bone, chocolate, etc. How about hermit crabs ? we may think same way, but in fact we've seen wild crabs grow stronger and bigger than ones keep in captivity. Too many factor involved for crabs, or maybe we just don't know yet. I can speak, that for dogs, as long you give them proper diet, exercise, care & love them, they should last long (so there are: food + feeling + exercise factors here), how about crabs ? i'd suspect place / movement limit plays big role for their growth rate.


I'd like to know the result too if someone / group willing to dedicate themselves to do such research.


Nice topic, really

[wendyj]

What a fabulous thread. It made me really think about what I am feeding. I just started keeping detailed lists of what I feed them on a daily basis since I adopted the 5 big guys. I serve a kibble that is purchased from a hermit site along with veggies/flowers/fruits and such. I don't mix them I set them side by side on their plate. I think I am going to try having several food dishes in the tank and see what happens. I read suebee (I believe) feeds at a specific time each day and am wondering if it is taken out at a specific time and then no food in the tank?

So many questions to ponder here and so much to think about. One of the best threads (no harm intended) here in a long time, made me think alot.

[blaze88]

All the research is summed up in a sticky in the food and water section... Read the comments for exact % and such. I should know, I read the scientific articles and co-wrote the summany here.

[Leonidas]

blaze88,

you mean kili's guide, right ? seen your comment there also, nice information. This topic here is similar and i just got some thought and try to expanded by adding their eating behavior factor.

If you say they can choose what they need, it may be true, maybe different species has different taste ? my indo rarely touch shrimp, but they never skip any coconut. my ruggies seem to eat any food i gave them, especially sweet taste ones.

[kgbenson]

Not to hijack, but I don't want anyone thinking I'm totally nuts!

Too late