commercial food discussion

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:59 am

What exactly are the effects of ethoxyquin on hermit crabs? Has it been proven to be harmful? My crabs seem to love their food "hbh hermit crab variety bites" which has eq in it, but i do not want to harm them in anyway- should i just start making baby food instead? if someone can please explain to me the effects of eq- i would graetly appreciate it! Thanx

-p.s. i have made some homeade crab food "crista's recipe + bannana chips) but the crabs are not eating it. Iknow this for sure. i put everything in the food processor and powdered it, the only thing that didn't powder was the rice.

any other ideas/recipes for a staple crab food?
I think i need a new staple, and i will also feed the homeade baby food in a seperate bowl. Also- i bbought some seaweed and i was wondering if it would be okay for the crabs- it's the kind that you get at the asian food store. it seems to be freeze dried or something- it comes in little sheets that are perferated into 4 smaller sections. I would list the ingredients- but they are listed in chinese!

Thanx in advance for helping out this confused crab- mom!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:51 am

EQ is suspected to cause molt deformation and death...the way the deformation occurs, it is suspected that the EQ either blocks up passages for secretory hormones required for the crab to shed it's exosleleton, or that it suppresses it entirely, thus rendering the crab incapable of producing the hormone...at this point, the degree of this malady is suspected to hinge on the quantity within the crabs system...the other negative aspect is that the crab cannot rid of the substance through digestion...it appears that it remains in their system like heavy metal poisoning, where it is actually found in all cellular DNA...(making it less likely for the crab to purge their system of it)...in mammals, EQ is thought to cause liver failure, liver cancer, and affects progeny by deformation, stillbirth, and cerebral deformation causing death...in its chemical composition, it is classified as an insecticide and a fungiside...(both not good for crabs or any animal)...part of the argument about it involves the safety of the quantity used...but that is irrelevant if the animal in question cannot rid the substance out of their system!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:11 am

kinda off topic- but on the list of safe foods I found epicureanhermit.com- tomatoes were listed. Tomatoes have been identified as a citrus fruit- i'm confused!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:16 am

citrus fruit is okay for them to consume...there used to be a time when people thought that it was not good for them due to acidity...there are still foods with too high an acidic content, but they do not include citrus...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:55 am

Tomatoes are not citrus fruit, though they have food acids in them. I'm compiling a list of citrus fruit, and this is it in its current incarnation:

Calamondin (Citrofortunella microcarpa)
Citron (Citrus medica)
Clementine
Grapefruit (Citrus paradisi)
Kumquat (Fortunella japonica)
Leech Lime
Lemon (Citrus Limon)
Lime (Citrus aurantiifolia)
Mandarin (Citrus reticulata)
Minneola
Orange, Sweet (Citrus sinensis)
Pummelo (Citrus grandis)
Rough Lemon
Satsuma
Sweety
Tangelo (Citrus X tangelo)
Tangerine
Ugli

Crabs might eat some of the flesh of the fruit, but they are really after the pith inside the skin for the most part. It is full of benefical flavonoids like hesperidin and beta carotene. Citrus can be quite beneficial to feed your crabs, but you'll need to age it first. The peels can carry a compound that acts as an insect repellent, limonene, but it breaks down as the fruit ages.

Once the fruit starts to wither and get wrinkly, it's perfect to feed your crabs.

With tomatoes they prefer the fleshy part to the juicy/seedy part. Romas are supposedly a particular favorite. My crabs will eat tomato, but not with enthusiasm.

Now as far as EQ being an insecticide, it really isn't. It doesn't kill insects, it only prevents scald which is a kind of blight on harvested fruit -- I've seen several web pages by laypeople where they've interpreted this as "scale." Scale IS an insect, but it is not killed by EQ. The EPA does list certain classes of chemicals as pesticides, even if they are not insecticides. These would be plant growth regulators, used in manipulating the plant's natural growth pattern to help prevent insect attack by speeding up the growing process or forcing the production of natural plant hormones or whatever. I don't know why the EPA classifies plant growth regulators as pesticides because it does confuse the issue, and has muddied the water on the EQ issue. I have seen it mentioned as an insecticide in several places, but most of these are by laypersons who don't understand the difference between a pesticide and an insecticide. Also a couple of manufacturers have listed its action as insecticidal, but I have yet to find any product on the market for killing insects that uses EQ as its active ingredient. It is used to increase the shelf life of insecticides sometimes but is not the insecticidal compound.

But between Sue and myself, we ought to have this sorted in short order!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:50 am

Since everyone's opinion is different, I guess this is how I'll solve it:

- I won't feed my crabs anything I woudn't eat

- if I am worried that a certain food isn't good for my crab, I will ask. If i am given conflicting answers- i won't feed it to my crabs

- I will make all of my crab's food myself so that i don't have to worry about preservatives and stuff like that.

Thank you to all you incredible CRab mOms & DaDs!

NaRnAR · Post by **NaRnAR** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:20 am

Thats the way to do it!

In my blog, in my signature, I have photos of two crabs who had molting problems thought to be because of EQ and other chemical preservatives in commercial crab food. (thought I would put that out there, since someone was asking about that)

Another something "yummy" that my hermies like in a bowl by itself is crushed oyster shell. I get mine in bulk from PetDiscounter It was funny yesterday, I had thrown their dishes of it away when I had mites about 3 weeks ago and forgot to put dishes of it back in when I re-did the tank....I finally noticed this last night, put a dish in and some of them havent moved since...they spent the night in the dish, eating shell....its mostly my new adoptees and the ones that just finished molting. But its an idea of another component to add to homemade foods for calcium!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:46 am

I have information on the authority of a Vet, that EQ is classified as an insecticide...reason being that the compound ( a qu i n olone (2,6-dihydro-2,2,4-trimethyl-6-quinolone)(XIII)), a dimer...which is basically a broken off piece of EQ (polymer) targets nervous systems...

a debate on whether plants or fungii have a nervous system is not the point, but as you pointed out Kerie, EQ oxidises into these dimes...a dime is still that specific chemical (EQ), that is why you do not find seperate discussion about the oxidants...they only occur from EQ... and why I did not understand that EQ broke down... it is still EQ, all components are still there, EQ specific break down they discuss pertains to their target (fishmeal)...but the dimes remain active (and more potent, as they last longer) this is actually the danger...because unbound, it no longer just effects the target...this exemplifies why some preservatives are so dangerous...

in science they only study the specific compounds and its natural course...food manufacturers, for pet foods do not have to disclose the use of other preservatives they may be using to bind their formulas, therefor any dangerous combinations known to the developers can not be forwarned...these other compounds when they break down can form new combos...due to the chemical nature, if one of the elements attract a certain compound, the resultant chemical will be totally different from its original intent...that is the premise used by the AVA(American Veteranary Association)...it is inherently dangerous to use any chemical combination that can result in potential pesticidic reaction....3 elements of the compounds in EQ are and have been used in other formulas for fungal and insecticidal applications...they are trimethyl, a compound in melelethon (a very potent insecticide), quinoline, used extensively to kill mosqitos, and also made into a sulphite used in malaria drugs, and finally, ethoxy itself, which was used to kill algae in ponds in the 50's and 60's...

I am sorry, I had never meant to get this in depth with the discussion on EQ...I think my motivation was because people really must know I am not basing my opinion of EQ on a bias...this is serious stuff, reaction from asking about it was really what spurred me to investigate further...it took several 3 hour phone conversations with Linda to help me understand the implications, I do not fault you Kerie for feeling that EQ is less of a threat than other preservatives are, because that is unfortunately true...however, EQ and its compounds, combined with any number of other preservatives does change it's intended nature...your point about heavy metal poisoning, and how EQ enhances other harmful compounds is exactly true, and why there has been no solid evidence subject to EQ exclusively...what should occur to change now, will be discovery of which elements bind themselves into new dimes when mixed with EQ...as my final opinion, stay clear of EQ!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:27 pm

I hope I'm not upsetting anyone by this.

My whole intent in this discussion I've jumped into is because I did all that reading on EQ a while back and have several pieces of a puzzle. I couldn't find any more of the pieces, and so I stalled at that point in my investigation, with the opinion that EQ wasn't that dangerous.

When I came over here, and found you, Sue, knew a lot about this subject, I naturally needed to compare my puzzle pieces to yours to see how they fit. Now I'm trying to get my head around the whole new picture.

I'm not trying to argue, sorry if I ever gave that impression. I'm just very interested in this issue. 99.99% of the stuff I've read on forums to date was just of the "burn the witch!" variety without any concrete discussion of why. that always makes me really suspicious, so I go out to find out for myself. Not into taking anyone's word just because something was said.

So all I've intended here is an inventory and comparison of our two knowledge sets. The picture has definitely changed on my part.

Sorry to confuse anyone! Not my intention.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:53 pm

Ethoxyquin is NOT an insecticide per se. It is classified as a pesticide, but only because it is used as an antifungal in pear trees (under the brand name Deccoquin). Its primary use in pet food is as an antioxidant (preservative). It is also used as a rubber preservative, because of the same potent antioxidant activity. It has no specific targeting of the nervous system as far as I can tell. And it has no specific targeting of insects, arthropods or other invertebrates, such as crabs. It's primary toxicity in mammals is hepatic (liver), causing hepatomegaly (liver enlargement). It IS allowed in human food in the amount of up to 5 parts per million. In pet food, it is allowed up to 150 parts per million.

The LD50 in mammals is about 100 mg/kg.

For fish, the LC50 is about 20mg/L within 4 days.

For zooplankton, the LC50 is about 2mg/L.

The bit about the different compounds in EQ is irrelevant, as there is only one compound in EQ and that is EQ itself. As far as the different chemical moieties making up the EQ molecule, this is also irrelevant. EQ is not quinoline.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:52 pm

I am in 7th heaven, I finally have some people to wrangle this with....Tardi, Julia, I sent you pm's to meet in chat over this matter as I think we need to discuss this in finer detail elsewhere so not to confuse the masses...we can post something later based on our discussions...as for that , the reason I am posting this message, is that I promissed my daughter we would go prom dress shopping (I guess it is important for grade 9 too)...

, I forgot...but I will be on-line tonight, I hope to find both of you there too...yahoo is very limiting for me but I will try it if you are not on MSN...bye for now...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:13 pm

Whew, I can't wait to see the summary of your conversation, cause this one is flying right over my head!

Thank you

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:33 am

*blinks* I'm with Robin-I find all of this fascinating, I just wish I was good enough at chemistry to understand more than half of it! Can someone tell a poor confused crabber what a dime is, besides a small coin valued at 1/10th of a dollar?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:47 am

I will try, I bet Tardi would be better, but he can correct me if I am wrong...a "dime" is a chemical residue of the breakdown by natural decomposition, or by heat, electricity, or the presence of another chemical...dimes are unique to the chemical compound they are formed from, and once they are no longer "bound" to the original chemical composition, can in the right conditions change their properties...that is my understanding to this point, I have not discussed with Tardigrade the likelyhood of such an occurance to the degree I would feel comfortable...I gathered from his response that it is generally not considered a problem, but we still need to swap some data...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:53 am

I just have to say that the posts I've read by Chestersmom and Kerie in the last 24 hours have blown me away, not just on this topic (Kerie your article on mites was very impressive, and Chestersmom . . I don't even know where to start).

Lots of folks in the HCA deserve equal credit, I just had to say WOW.

I hope no one gets a complex from this.