A Discussion on Substrate

[NaRnAR]

I have not seen much--if any bickering until this last page, people have been civil in their discussions. If members want to be able to debate and have in-depth adult civil discussions, disagreement will happen and people need to understand that...there will be charges for proof of your stance as well (especially from a few of us that have a science background), especially if you use the word "research", as that implies there have been hypotheses and testing with a control and variables, leading to data and conclusions. That is what a debate is about...nature of the beast.

So lets continue to talk about substrate and the crabs that inhabit it.

As far as 5:1 substrate goes, I have no reason that people shouldnt use it....Ive never used, Ive got nothing negative to state about it. The only thing I have had experience with as far as a mixed substrate was about half sand/half EE and that dried out way too quickly.

[JediMasterThrash]

Pardon my inline quoting , I just want to make sure my response is clear.

Why does that make us upset? Because it implies that..., it implies that.... And that folks no matter how you cut it is an insult.

All I ask is take a second before you click that "Submit" button and read over your post one more time. Try to think if there's something, or some poor choice of wording, that could be misconstrued by someone, or could be offensive to someone. And if you read something offensive, just assume they didn't intend it that way, and don't try to get defensive in response.

wanted written proof

There is a difference between "proof" and "details". Wanting "proof" could imply disbelief. However, to quite the contrary, wanting "details" just means we're intrigued by what we've heard, and simply have a thirst for more information. If someone says they want to see the research, do not imply the former and get defensive. Assume the latter instead, which is a compliment - it means you've inspired interest in people

I for one am incredibly interested in all the ideas in this thread. I'm also extremely interested in Sue's care methods, as she has stated having no molt deaths for most of the past 15 years Even with all I've learned so far, I still have a couple molt deaths each deep clean, so I'm extremely interested in learning more info about what you other crabbers are doing to see what alternate methods I can integrate into my own.

Besides, why can't we have productive arguments, why does everything have to be 100% agree with this or that?

A good argument is fine

A "debate" focuses on the information. "bickering" is when we start making negative implications and get defensive in response, and then it devolves into generalized insults.

All I'm saying is
1. Do not assume people intended an insult with a statement, and as a result there is no need to get defensive.
2. Read your posts one more time before clicking submit to try to make sure you don't say anything that could be taken the wrong way.

These can happen in any order.



(My previous post and the above post are JMT CrabMaster talking, the below is JMT JediAdmin talking)

Now if someone *is* repeatedly posting something that a member takes offense at , PM the member directly to discuss the matter in private; or click the "report post" icon and let the moderators decide if they actually meant offense, or if it was benign and just poorly worded. But the member is best to just ignore the parts of a post they take offense at, lest in the act of getting defensive they spur some of the bickering.

The HCA will always allow and encourage discussion or arguments of different views of crab keeping. That's how every year we reinvent the wheel in crabkeeping. Every alternate method or new idea is valuable.

The only things we don't allow are a few very specific items which are listed in our site rules link to the upper right, and apply equally to all:
http://www.hermitcrabassociation.com/pages/rules.html
Things like cussing, spamming, trolling, flaming, member farming, bringing back up locked topics (usually not the original topic itself, just the tangent topic that took over the original thread), etc.

We will never prevent someone from giving their own advice to another member (within reason.. don't advise people to boil their crabs or defenestrate them or anything )

[SachOfSCP]

Well, not to step on anyone's toes or to speak for someone else, but some of us have discussed this off the board and if the implication of wanting "proof" wasn't meant, so be it. But several of us have discussed the 5:1 mix recommendation (as well as the reasons behind it and where it came from) on here before and we were blatantly asked for proof of everything we were saying, especially from some of the same people. I can say with a fair amount of certainty that she said what she did (gclnin) because that is exactly what has happened in the past.

[JediMasterThrash]

I split this into a separate post as it's a somewhat separate tangent (Actually it tangents back to the real topic LOL is it really a tangent then?)


I can see that the thread was originally about getting info of different substrate methods, but then for a little while devolved into arguing about whether we should be saying X to newbies or not.


This is actually not a new argument. I was a part of a similar argument 6 years go on LHC. Here's a link to the thread:
http://landhermitcrabs.com/eve/forums/a ... =437105151

For those without an account, here's some of my posts:

It's really the same old "abstinance vs. contraception" issue.

What I really think is right, is that you shouldn't even have hermit crabs (or any animal) as a pet unles you can provide it the right environment to live in. I don't think it's fair to force a pet to live in a tiny cage - even 10g size - for its whole captive life. 55g tanks should be a minimum for any pet that you don't take for daily walks. Fresh natural food (not processed leftover animal parts meal), fresh water and substrate, large clean water bowls for bathing.

I 100% agree with Bill. The problem is that I don't know how to properly preach it. If all we tell new crabbers is that they need to have a full-out setup, or they shouldn't have crabs at all, then they'll just ignore us, and find info that is more appealing. They'll take all the bad info about hermit crab care, and believe it, because it's easier to follow, regardless or how correct it is.

So, given that people are going to "do it anyway", we need that kind of auxillary care, to make sure that the crabs are in as good of an environment as possible, given the lack of knowledge and proper supplies on the part of the owner. And hope that the owners will eventually find this site, and either put together the correct "home" for these little "lives", or give up their crabs to another member who can give them the home they deserve.

So, that means I understand what Aviate is saying. We need to provide "mediocre" care along with "best" care, so that those who are unwilling to invest in best care at least won't make their crabs feel as good as possible.

There's no way to properly word this post. No matter what, I come off sound like an arse. But the more I have pets, and see pets in pet stores and kiosks and as pets in homes, the more I think it's just wrong to make them spend their whole lives in tiny, inadequate homes.

I kind of wish hermit crabs were expensive. Nobody (at least hopefully) spends 100$ on a vieled chamelean, and then dumps it in a tiny cage with no water. They research the proper care and make sure that their 100$ friend will live for a long time. But with crabs, 5$ a shot. Every month, you buy more to replace the ones that died. Keep them in a little container on your shelf. It's disgusting.

And here:
http://landhermitcrabs.com/eve/forums/a ... #346106577

The issue being the 2 sides to the coin:

1. We shouldn't keep hermit crabs as pets unless we can provide proper accomodations (i.e., a habitat as close to their native home as possible). This means a large tank, pools of circulated water, circulated air, and proper temp and humidity and lighting.

2. People who can't provide the "perfect crabitat" are still going keep hermit crabs as pets. So as crab conservationalists, we can't neglect these crabs, despite the less-than-ideal conditions. So we develop the "crab care on a budget" to provide the best possible crab care with limited resources.

So what you'll see on this board is always a "the best way is X, but if you can't do that, Y is the best alternative".

Even in my care sheet, I say "If you do not have sufficiently sized water bowls in the tank for crabs to bathe themselves, you should give the unburied crabs an occasional bath."

I think the biggest issue is to make sure you don't dig-up crabs. Only bath crabs that are active on the surface.

But as was mentioned, there's not much excuse. You can easily fit a medium-sized water dish in a 10g, and medium-sized crabs should be able to bath in that. You're tank shouldn't be so crowded that you can't fit it in, and you can always build a second-level if you need more room.

It's also about progressive care. Say someone comes on who just got a crab at a mall in a small Kritter-Killer. Do we just shun him and his KK? No, that would be wrong. So we need to immediately improve the crabs condition, so we give him the best advice for keeping a crab healthy in a KK (deeper substrate, seran wrap, etc), and then guide them towards future better care. In most cases, they will upgrade to a 10 or 20g within a few weeks after realizing the needs of these oft-misunderstood creatures. And within a year they might get a 55+g tank and approad ideal conditions, (or in some cases, decide the care requirments are too high and adopt them out to other members). So we have to support this path from start to finish, even if the start isn't an ideal environment.

I'd also like to refer to this post of mine from 2 years ago:
http://www.hermitcrabassociation.com/ph ... hp?t=60447&
About 2/3rds down the page, I go into a discussion about 3 different methods of crab keeping, "Natural", "Micromanaged", and "Hybrid", and the benefits of each.

[JediMasterThrash]

But several of us have discussed the 5:1 mix recommendation ... on here before and we were blatantly asked for proof of everything we were saying, especially from some of the same people. I can say with a fair amount of certainty that she said what she did (gclnin) because that is exactly what has happened in the past.

I'm sorry if there has been some issues going on; gclnin may have been justified in feeling offended, but I sincerely believe no offense was intended.

I honestly don't think we should ever feel offended for being asked of proof, offense intended or not.



I was in a similar situation before. Six years ago I was one of the first crabbers to say we shouldn't bathe our crabs and we should let them molt in the main tank. Up until then, the consensus was that you need weekly baths and to isolate molters. There was a lot of disbelief, and a lot of arguing, but in the end here we are, and now the majority doesn't bathe and doesn't isolate.

And the change happened due to lots of information. I experimented with my new methods, and achieved great results (no deaths in 6 months), and that's when I started posting my "Lessons Learned From A Deep Clean" posts every 6 months, to document each variable in my experiments and the perceived results.
http://www.hermitcrabassociation.com/ph ... hp?t=25738&



In a similar situation, for a long time I've been trying to say that Stress Coat is safe, but the consensus still was that it is harmful to crabs. So I did a 2 years experiment using stress coat in my drinking water, and then posted the results
http://www.hermitcrabassociation.com/ph ... hp?t=73202&



So I just want to say, "proof" isn't a bad thing. If I post something off my head and someone calls me on it, I'll spend the next half hour searching google for my source to clear it up.


And if you believe you've given proof already and some members aren't convinced, feel free to ignore them, rather than get angry. If it becomes an issue, report it.

But there's always different points of view, and sometimes you need to temporarily step into an outside point of view as well. For instance, as a receiver of a request for proof, you may feel offense. But if you step outside to the sidelines of a thread, you might feel it was benign.

Same things happen at work. Sometimes you get caught up in some drama at work, and think it's so terrible you want to quit. But sometimes if you can take a step back and look at it from the outside, the drama is actually pretty silly and not worth getting stress out about.

[aquav]

I think another issue we have to keep in mind on a forum like this is that it is solely written language, which can create misunderstandings. The lack of inflection/ intonation that is found in spoken language can make a huge difference in the way a statement and/ or
question are received. If discussions were held in person, certain comments may have never been entertained as being offensive by anyone involved.

[SachOfSCP]

Aquav, you are correct in that. My opinion? Were the discussion held in person; there'd be plenty of comments never made at all, offensive or otherwise. Using the internet for a discussion affords people the ability to say things they may not say in person. Christa says not to say anything you wouldn't say within slapping distance of the person you're saying it to. Some people take advantage of the anonymity offered by the internet.

[SebbyCrab]

Well if inflection/tone of a post are issue, why can't the crabbers on the HCA set up a VOCAL chat, via one of the messenger services, and have out there, where all the questions can be asked vocally, without the need to give out personal information seeing as messenger accounts are fairly disposable. Those chats also have the added benefits of being able to silence people who get too pushy, or insulting for a bit, and giving them a cool down period. [/suggestion]

I for one would find myself participating in those chats, seeing as I enjoy listening to discussions and learning new things.


As for the mix of substrate, Mine is not currently 5:1, I'm not sure what exactly my mix is. But it works for my current home and my current crabs. When I'm moved and in Utah, I might need a larger amount of EE, or I might not. I don't know yet, all I can do is make up the mix I'm comfortable with and let it go, until I get everything balanced.

[SachOfSCP]

You know, Sebby-that's a good idea!

While I'm sure you've said it (prob in this thread), I'm too lazy to go back & look. What is your mix? Is it sand and EE mixed together? Which do you have more of?

ETA: I do suppose though, that one small problem with a voice chat is that younger members might be embarrassed about giving away their age, or end up possibly being discredited because of their age.