Lethargic/Not Well...

[Kydra]

Since you've come to the emergency forum, we know you want a fast answer to your question. In order for us to figure out the problem as quickly as possible, we ask that you answer the following questions as best you can. Some of them may seem odd, but they're all designed to give us the information we need to give you a good solution for your problem. The things in the [ brackets ] are there to make this post easier to read once submitted. Thanks!

I will fill this out as a general guide as I have 3 crabitats at the moment (+ the iso tank below)...

1. What kind of substrate is used in your tank and how deep is it?

Loose Eco Earth & Quikrete Premium (Washed/Screened) Playsand; I personally have the best success with about a 3:1 ratio of playsand to EE. Yes, it is moistened using dechlorinated tap water via Prime + Instant Ocean brand to sandcastle consistency on initial setup. If need to mist around edges just dechlor tap water. Oh... 12" with the adults, just added a bit more than an inch for the babies to about 7-8".

2. Do you have gauges in the tank to measure temperature and humidity? If so, where are they located and what temperature and humidity do they usually read?

Acurite; generally 74-80 temp with humidity around 80-85% (I have been more cautious here R/T a bacterial bloom when I had limited knowledge/experience and basically soaked the substrate smh + baby group recommendation on humidity). Located in center front of tanks (typically).

3. Is a heat source used in the tank? If so, what?

Yes; UTHs on side (back) of tanks mostly above substrate level, but may be an inch or so below in another tank.

4. What types of water are available (fresh or salt) and how is the water treated (what brands of dechlorinator or salt mix and what ratio is used to mix it)?

Fresh with Prime (tap) & Saltwater with IO (primed tap).

5. What kinds of food do you feed and how often is it replaced?

Purchased foods are mostly from THCP and Mary's Etsy. Calcium/Protein daily + everything else including fresh foods.

6. How long have you had the crab and what species is it, if known?

This specific crab = just over the 1 year mark. PP.

7. Has your crab molted, and how long ago did it happen?

Yes, multiple times (small... has grown a lot though in 1 year!). Last time = maybe a few months ago or so.

8. What type of housing are the crabs kept in, what size is it and what kind of lid is on the housing?

Glass aquarium tanks with screen lid (Saran Wrap). This crab = 55G.

9. How many crabs are in the tank and about how large are they?

55G = This crab was in there with 3 others. This was the 1 small with 2 medium and 1 large. Now in iso.

10. How many extra shells are usually kept in the tank, if any?

When healthy with all 4 in 55G = Between 25-30 shells (mostly turbos) rotated every week or so... too many lol, but I have gotten more creative with placement.

11. Have there been any fumes or chemicals near the crabitat recently?

No.

12. How often do you clean the tank and how?

Spot clean. Just re-did both main tanks and wanted to add sub so no deep clean just spot check dig to the bottom without molters down to smell the sub ha (see above with history of bacterial bloom and it is not fun + the smell is atrocious - FYI = did not smell anything when had pretty bad BB... just noticed some discoloration... then started digging... and the smell ughhh... and the work meh).

I'll sift through the top layer removing what I can then add what I need (I do not add sub or mess with the decor if any crab is molting though I am aware many say an inch every 24 hours CAN be added if necessary for whatever reason). Did this mostly because I finally have SOME time in my life AND with the current circumstances, it seemed like a good time to do this.

13. Are sponges used in the water dish? If so, how are they cleaned?

No.

14. Has anything new been added to your crabitat recently?

After this bizarre behavior to lethargy idk what is going on thing, yes. Not relevant to this crab's condition though.

Spent way too much money on more shells and also purchased a few things from (I totally forget the username(s) here at the moment)... CoenobitaCuriosities on Etsy. Really wanted to have that order since I had planned on adding/changing a few things with current situation and no molters, but the package somehow goes from PA to DC to MD to NJ. Just received a text now that it was delivered when I had just looked at it in NJ locally rescheduled for tomorrow . Thank you for shipping so fast! Did NOT expect that... like not even an hour after I placed the order shipping label created and on way. Appreciated. TBH, once I saw 'delayed/unknown' had fingers crossed wasn't completely lost with what I had ordered...

Yeah so completely side tracked... but... just went and opened the box... awesome!! . I was reading about the cubes (again) and went on to make a small purchase of a few... and ended up ordering all that then talked myself out of spending more than that (gotta have some kinda limit lol) so thanks again for including them! Going to add that new moss pit (deluxe one if anyone wants to check that out) for the babies after I post this . Really cool. The best anything I'll get from my partner is a "stupid crustaceans" sarcastic remark . Thank you both!

15. Is there any other information you would like to share that might be helpful (anything that is regularly part of your crab care, playtime, bathing, etc.)?

If I do, it will likely end up off-topic so I'll pass on this question .

16. Please describe the emergency situation in detail.

I apologize as this would typically be an emergency, but it is not a current emergency although that could change with another POV or any insight that I'm just lacking here.

So this year has sucked and I have been working much more recently (longer shifts with less staff and little sleep). I mention this because it was a few weeks ago, maybe about 3 weeks ago, that I noticed some out of the norm behavior from this crab; just out and about during the day, but otherwise nothing else.

Then last week I was watching the WyzeCam after work and observed this crab just hanging in the saltwater for hours which I have seen crabs initially do prior to molting.

After this, he had slowed down considerably day after day. Started getting concerned that I had not seen any digging or attempt to assuming pre-molt. I watched the camera a few nights ago and did not see him at all while the others were 'running' on the wheel... their usual. Thought this was good and that he finally dug down to molt.

I looked in the morning and still didn't see him, but later when changing food/water I noticed him (still in his shell) in a spare turbo shell for the largest with him basically hiding here. I have never seen this crab 'hide' in any of the larger spare shells so started to prep an iso and thought maybe the top layer of sand was just too dry (multiple successful molts without issue so that was all I could think of). This was in the evening so I rush around setting up an iso because something was wrong and the other crabs would be out soon and didn't think just leaving him like that was a good idea.

I end up just completely scooping some of the sub along with the larger shell and the crab in his shell inside of that shell and gently place in iso tank. Turned the camera to face the iso and sure enough he comes out of larger shell and is lethargic, but still eating/drinking. He has gotten worse significantly every day now for about 3 days.

Yesterday when I was adding/changing things in the other tanks he just sat there in a normal sitting type position all day and didn't move from that spot and would not retract into shell as typical with all the outside movement. Last night he kinda chilled in the saltwater until that was completely gone then ate some of the food I have in there and finally went under a coco hut that I had kinda made somewhat of a hole/cave for him (wasn't sure to expect a surface molt or not). I did use the iso that is a little smaller than the 10 gallon tank as everything seemed pre-molt (even if I usually do not notice and they molt when they molt).

The iso has a UTH on the back with about 4" of sandcastle consistency 1:1 substrate using a half dosed saltwater mix. There are 2 larger (shallow) clam shells that he can and has been drinking from as well as walking into the saltwater. Added some spare cholla wood just for more dark/hiding areas and have multiple much smaller clam shells with food + threw in some pieces of a catappa leaf in another area.

I just opened the lid to change the food/water and spot clean some of the mess for fresh foods and it is definitely malodorous in there; odd odor though . Right before finishing up figured smell it again as the lid has been removed for a few minutes. There was a faint odor, but not at all what it had been. I kinda feel bad for the little dude and part of me feels like I am just extending his suffering by doing what I'm doing if that makes any sense (and no, I would never intentionally harm anything just kinda sad the way he appears).

I added in most of the same food that I have been using while he's been in iso (+ boiled egg today so that's new). Food: exo mix from Mary's Etsy (anyone lacking calcium/exo mix they all love this stuff) with baby shrimp from there, oyster shell, powdered cuttlebone, some dried pieces of veggies/fruit, coconut shavings, a crushed bug protein mix (THCP), another small clam shell with just the basic diet from THCP, and the boiled egg in small pieces.

I just paused and looked to be sure that's what I added and he is picking at the boiled egg (slowly though and no reaction when I just walked up to check the food I have in there). Just not well at all, but still eating and drinking so I'm at a loss here on what to do now.

Planning on just continuing this for now though. It has been just over a year with at least 3-4 normal molts and significant growth. If anything, things have just gotten better... his typical night is food/water first then miles on the smaller wheel in the 55G.

So, he is either going to end up molting (surface molting?) or dying. I have tossed around a few theories that maybe could be sick and have been practicing isolation type precautions trying not to contaminate the others or the babies in another tank.

The thing is, he has been in that tank with the other 'adult' crabs for a while now with all 4 molting in that tank and it took me some time to notice the 'out and about during the day' as something is wrong behavior... really wasn't until I noticed the slowdown as well as the too long saltwater soak. It really has just been a few days now with him in his current condition and I'm not sure there's much else that I can do, but just wait and see.

As I wrote, this year as a whole has been mostly a disaster over here with me barely taking care of myself... think the one constant that I have kept up with are the crabs. I'll keep an eye on him (via camera) and post any updates.

Thought I might as well post this and get some feedback + contribute to the forum here since it has been a while! I have to vacuum that room in a few and wanted to take out the babies for another measurement/shell size/choice/etc.

With that said, hopefully I can get on FB and start catching up a bit + have been collecting data as I am able to on the babies, but haven't shared at all so that's not really helping anyone either. .

Any thoughts on this one?

[Kydra]

Just an update on the little dude...

No noticeable change observed. Remains in iso and lethargic, out during the day with limited responses on approach. I had added pieces of boiled egg before initial post and removed that the next day with him just sitting there (after I walked away he slowly moved towards the coco hide). Once again, saltwater 'dish' was completely empty and refilled although that hasn't been every day just resting in saltwater, but still drinking both and still eating. Basically all the same.

Around a week or so now, but will continue on with iso.

[CrabbyLover77]

Sorry to hear your little guy isn't feeling well. I read through your post and your tank conditions sound good. Since you already have him in iso, I'd just keep him there until he starts acting like himself again. Do you have any honey or bee pollen? Maybe they can help give him a boost. I found a nice size jar of organic bee pollen on Amazon that my crabs really like. I also found some local honey sold at my pharmacy.

https://smile.amazon.com/GREENBOW-Organ ... +po&sr=8-3

Please keep us updated. I wish I could be of more help!

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[Kydra]

Sorry to hear your little guy isn't feeling well. I read through your post and your tank conditions sound good. Since you already have him in iso, I'd just keep him there until he starts acting like himself again. Do you have any honey or bee pollen? Maybe they can help give him a boost. I found a nice size jar of organic bee pollen on Amazon that my crabs really like. I also found some local honey sold at my pharmacy.

https://smile.amazon.com/GREENBOW-Organ ... +po&sr=8-3

Please keep us updated. I wish I could be of more help!

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Thanks for the feedback! I rambled on as always so appreciate you reading through that.

It's just sad looking at him, but doing what I can still. Just waiting for something to change. Can't even convince myself of any PPS and have no idea what went wrong with him.

He is still in the iso; think he looks slightly worse today, didn't respond at all with me changing food/water again, but slowly made it back into the coco hut/hide.

I have given him bee pollen (no honey/peanut butter though) along with lots of protein and calcium. Still have some basic foods in there too with many crushed into smaller pieces thinking will make it easier for him.

Purchased a small bag of bee pollen along with some more variety foods on Etsy a few days ago to try out. Will check the Amazon link for price/comparison; thanks for adding that.

I mentioned that I haven't been as active here besides lurking the forums at times... with this one I'm completely clueless on what is actually wrong with him which is why I thought any feedback/advice would help whether positive or negative. Maybe just posting will also help others with behavior changes seemingly 'cute/cool' might not just be a crab being a weirdo.

Thanks again!! ...and I will continue to update regardless of what happens next. Conditions are ideal as far as I'm aware. Have been trying to wait things out on improving second levels/adding for more stimuli in the main tanks. Trying to hope for a turnaround to normal or at least dig down to molt (surface molt if can't dig would still be better than nothing).

I am going to try to post a few pictures later on since been taking a few here and there since iso. Just looks a little worse today .

[crabbycasey]

I read through when you initially posted, but I’m not one of the experts on here and would never want to say the wrong thing. The same applies now, but I just wanted to say I think it’s a good thing he’s at least still eating and drinking. Try not to worry too much as it sounds like you’re doing everything you can. Sending positive vibes that he’s a tough crabby and pulls through his little slump! Keep us posted


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CrabbyLover77]

Thanks for the feedback! I rambled on as always so appreciate you reading through that.

It's just sad looking at him, but doing what I can still. Just waiting for something to change. Can't even convince myself of any PPS and have no idea what went wrong with him.

He is still in the iso; think he looks slightly worse today, didn't respond at all with me changing food/water again, but slowly made it back into the coco hut/hide.

I have given him bee pollen (no honey/peanut butter though) along with lots of protein and calcium. Still have some basic foods in there too with many crushed into smaller pieces thinking will make it easier for him.

Purchased a small bag of bee pollen along with some more variety foods on Etsy a few days ago to try out. Will check the Amazon link for price/comparison; thanks for adding that.

I mentioned that I haven't been as active here besides lurking the forums at times... with this one I'm completely clueless on what is actually wrong with him which is why I thought any feedback/advice would help whether positive or negative. Maybe just posting will also help others with behavior changes seemingly 'cute/cool' might not just be a crab being a weirdo.

Thanks again!! ...and I will continue to update regardless of what happens next. Conditions are ideal as far as I'm aware. Have been trying to wait things out on improving second levels/adding for more stimuli in the main tanks. Trying to hope for a turnaround to normal or at least dig down to molt (surface molt if can't dig would still be better than nothing).

I am going to try to post a few pictures later on since been taking a few here and there since iso. Just looks a little worse today .

You're welcome! Wish I could make the little guy feel better. It sounds like you are doing everything possible to get him well. It's going to be up to him now. How's he doing today? How are you doing today? Taking care of yourself too I hope!

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[Kydra]

I read through when you initially posted, but I’m not one of the experts on here and would never want to say the wrong thing. The same applies now, but I just wanted to say I think it’s a good thing he’s at least still eating and drinking. Try not to worry too much as it sounds like you’re doing everything you can. Sending positive vibes that he’s a tough crabby and pulls through his little slump! Keep us posted


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Appreciate it! If you have any ideas you might be thinking please feel free to share. I have read through so many posts here; pretty much daily for the first few months after initially ending up here lol . The more you know...

I have searched for similar circumstances since this started, but most conclude this type behavior as PPS or caused by inadequate conditions... and most results that I've found here that seem similar have not ended well. Considering the conditions/length of time with this one, there's really nothing that I can simply rationalize away (whether that be some inadequacy or PPS).

As for the eating and drinking, that is no longer the case . I'm still not quite sure although I'm now leaning towards this being pre-molt behavior to surface molt. The behavior fits, but I'm likely subconsciously hoping for this outcome as things currently stand. Just wanted to say thanks for the positive vibes! Will post another update below.

[Kydra]

You're welcome! Wish I could make the little guy feel better. It sounds like you are doing everything possible to get him well. It's going to be up to him now. How's he doing today? How are you doing today? Taking care of yourself too I hope!

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Thanks again! I actually did end up purchasing that bee pollen on Amazon along with some more one ingredient type foods. Might actually start making a few mixes with everything I have now!! Have way too much food .

I just looked at the date on my original post and... 12/9!?!? I really did not think it has been that long in iso. You asked this a few days ago, but just finishing up a few things after getting home from work (shift started yesterday afternoon ) and wanted to post before passing out in bed!

Update:

I have been maintaining in iso as previously written with no significant change in status up until late Thursday night. Noticed he was sitting in same spot all day Thursday and kept checking in Thursday night into Friday morning from the wyze cam. No movement at all that I could see which continued through Friday.

After smelling fishy when removing the lid to reassess (without actually handling) and to change food/water, I may have jumped the gun assuming death smell. I had some 'baby shrimp' from Mary along with other foods that stunk up the smaller iso much more quickly than I would have thought. Removed all food and was contemplating on what to do at that point thinking he had passed.

For whatever reason (gut instinct type deal), I decided to move the iso into a quieter spare room across the hall, sat iso down gently, placed coconut hide over him, plugged in UTH maintaining temp/humidity... and I just left that there late Friday evening.

Prior to work Saturday, there was no obvious/overwhelming smell and after getting ready for work did one of the 'stare until you see movement' things before leaving. I thought I saw a twitch and checked again prior to work yesterday (Sunday). No smell, but really didn't see movement either .

It's now Monday morning and I have not physically been able to take a look yet as it's been dark up until now although still not smelling anything terrible as I did a sniff test (lol) as soon as I got home late night/early morning.

After submitting this post, I will do a more thorough assessment... as thorough as I can be without disturbing anything. I am a bit sleep deprived as of now and will be changing the food/water in the main tanks later on with some extra time to really get a better look and should be able to provide something more on ANY movement or position change... basically anything... and I will post another update later on tonight.

There's a possibility that I'm really just being too optimistic, but I don't see the harm in waiting for now. From what I have read, my understanding was that the process of actually shedding exo during a molt was more often than not a fairly quick process. With a surface molt the entire molt time itself would logically present as a 'fast molt'.

I could continue rambling on some more, but just way too tired! This has been a bizarre month for this one to say the least.

[crabbycasey]

Only thing I can think of now if he is trying to molt, to get it as dark as you can. Doesn’t the darkness trigger the hormone that starts the process? Maybe a blanket over his iso tank? Just an idea. I’m sorry he isn’t getting any better YET! Keep the faith that he will pull through and just keep doing what you’re doing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kydra]

Only thing I can think of now if he is trying to molt, to get it as dark as you can. Doesn’t the darkness trigger the hormone that starts the process? Maybe a blanket over his iso tank? Just an idea. I’m sorry he isn’t getting any better YET! Keep the faith that he will pull through and just keep doing what you’re doing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Update/edit as I can barely keep eyes open, but he's alive... which is awesome, but also stressful!!

When I just checked, I kinda sat to the side and heard some movement so I slowly moved away and around where I can just see in coco hut and he's changed positions and doing something in there... was not going to disturb or shine a light on him. His position change makes it difficult to see much at all besides his shell unless I removed hut or used a light directly into hut; being alone in iso and covered not doing that as first real movement I both heard and definitely saw as best I could.

There are a few factors that would trigger a molt and have read on the total darkness versus a natural cycle (though limited as far as brightness) recommendations on surface molts. Where he is at now as far as physical location in room with some natural light without any direct sunlight along with the coconut hide over him with just a small opening... I actually think that ended up as ideal as I could have hoped for. Will be monitoring and managing more often with this change in behavior today.

On a slightly off-topic note, really want the newer wyze cam like now lol. The night vision is OK on current version. With the much needed hardware upgrade, should be so much better for night viewing which would have been more helpful throughout this incident. Also, the captive bred babies get lost sometimes at night with the current lens/infrared/night vision which makes it so much more difficult to keep track of each individually.

My other 3 in that tank with this 1 are probably all due soon too with 1 beginning to dig more than usual... which is good since I'm still searching for an explanation and have been hoping that whatever caused or triggered this wouldn't end in a chain reaction of surface molts! Regardless, I'm thrilled he's alive... and hopefully munching on some exo!!

Thanks for reading through again. Think it helps me to just talk/write everything out and can also look back at event timeline too. Looking likely that he'll be getting extra care in the meantime.

With a tankmate digging and ideal crabitat conditions, I'm not sure if I'll actually find that exact explanation as to why this occurred... still not out of the woods with him; much more hopeful though. Especially considering his back story and Christmas around the corner! Poor Noel.

Thanks again for the feedback! The dialog itself is very helpful for me.

[crabbycasey]

Here for support when you need it, best wishes!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CrabbyLover77]

Glad to hear the little guy is hanging in there. I hope by now he's doing better. That's great you were able to pick up the bee pollen on Amazon. I probably offer that every other feeding for both of my tanks and I still have a ton left.
Try not to work too hard. Keep us updated. Happy Holidays!

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[Kydra]

Uhm... help!?!? Lol.

I'm likely going to be a bit disorganized with my thoughts right now... planned on updating here sometime this weekend, but current circumstances have unexpectedly changed.

Noel remained in iso since my last post with as much monitoring as I could provide using the wyze cam for the most part. It's actually easier for me to see into the coconut hut darkness at night with the camera/night vision.

The night video quality is decent on the wyze cam... for a twenty dollar camera that I have placed outside of all tanks needing to see through glass and zoom far enough to blur a bit. It looked like some slight movement last night on the cam. I do mean slight as in maybe that was something I saw... not out and about movement. Hasn't been close to even back to lethargic up until just now. I already mentally noted that he had likely passed away.

The rear camera on my cell has better vision than I do along with allowing more light in for better pictures/video in darker scenarios (no flash used). I was just about to do the usual water/food and maybe rotate a bunch of shells in the main tanks, but wanted to get a few minutes of video to check in on him again. While still in exactly the same spot as he has been for days (weeks?), I could clearly see movement... so, yes, that alone is great news!

Without looking back at prior post, he did not come out last night or today at all and has not touched food/water for a bit now either. He has been in the same exact spot probably since my last update here. I have already re-educated myself further R/T surface molting. Looking back, pre-molt behavior was definitely present. While I still find the timing of all of this so bizarre, I'm not seeing this being anything other than a surface molt, but I will know more very soon.

I have kept everything stable for him with really zero disruptions. With that said, I did not observe any shedding or eating of exo etc. Basically, I just provided increased darkness and kept conditions intact. He is very, very slowly starting to turn towards me sitting here while still inside the hide. Once I have a visual assessment, I will have a much better idea on how I'm going to proceed here.

As of now, I am as prepared as I can be, but still need a better assessment of current condition. I wrote "help" as a first reaction, but feel OK for now. Nobody knows everything and this is new for me as a personal experience so please don't hesitate to share any thoughts.

Their crabitat conditions are rather ideal which may be something I need to look back at. More so theorizing on this particular crab rather than the actual tank conditions resulting in this slowdown and whatever comes next.

It's molting season here and one in the 55G had built a nice cave last night about 9" down and against the glass. Of course when daylight came that cave was destroyed moving to a better spot I presume. Made a mental note of this as I did add some moist sub after iso thinking maybe the top layer of sub was just too dry. Tried something at least...

I am going to make a small mix myself now with some organic honey and will offer plenty more including the typical post-molt favorites. I am comfortable giving honey within this mix for something beneficial/different as I'm aware that offering honey has become a debate among groups. Hopefully he makes his way out without difficulty or any further issue then will just go from there.

Would like to add that there was an odd smell throughout all of this, but nothing too extraordinary (molts smell too). Honestly, I'm now just thinking about how many would have just buried (trashed, idk) after this long of nothing and hanging out of shell lifeless assuming the crab had just got sick and died . Grateful that I waited on him for this long. Just putting that out there for anyone reading as he appeared dead for weeks with an off smell that wasn't too overwhelming, but definitely noticeable.

Hope all here had a very Merry Christmas and have been able to enjoy the holidays! Will keep things updated as I can.

[Links]

Interesting. Sorry that’s all I can think of. Oh and I wish you and your little buddy luck.

[CrabbyLover77]

Thanks for the update!

I offer honey too. I just offered some tonight in both tanks. I put it in a small lid so the crabs can dip their claws in, but can't sit in it.

It sounds like Noel is hanging in there. I'm sure he wouldn't have made it this far if it weren't for the great care you're giving him. Sure wish I had some ideas for you, but you're doing everything I can think of.

Hope you're getting some rest. Happy New Year!

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk