new tiny in same spot over 48 hours (day 9 QUESTIONS)

[hprmom]

A week ago we brought home three new tiny/smalls. Two I have not seen in several days so I assume they dug under. The third is the one I'm requesting help for. I think I'm doing everything I can, but want to make sure I'm not overlooking something.

1. What kind of substrate is used in your tank and how deep is it?
11-12" deep, primarily 5:1 ee:playsand, with areas of more ee or more sand near the surface.

2. Do you have gauges in the tank to measure temperature and humidity? If so, where are they located and what temperature and humidity do they usually read?
Three locations around the tank with temps varying from 80-83F and humidity from 80-84%.

3. Is a heat source used in the tank? If so, what?
Ultratherm on the back of the tank above substrate.

4. What types of water are available (fresh or salt) and how is the water treated (what brands of dechlorinator or salt mix and what ratio is used to mix it)?
FW/Prime and MSW/Instant Ocean.

5. What kinds of food do you feed and how often is it replaced?
Variety of fresh and dried foods, replaced every 24-48 hours.

6. How long have you had the crab and what species is it, if known?
PP, came home Saturday night one week ago.

7. Has your crab molted, and how long ago did it happen?
Not with me.

8. What type of housing are the crabs kept in, what size is it and what kind of lid is on the housing?
65g glass aquarium tank (36x18x24H) with glass lids.

9. How many crabs are in the tank and about how large are they?
Eight total: one sm/med, four med on the large side, and the three new tinies. As far as I know one med and two tinies are dug under.

10. How many extra shells are usually kept in the tank, if any?
At least 3-4 choices per crab. I added a shallow tray with 10 tiny/small shells directly on the sub for the new kids.

11. Have there been any fumes or chemicals near the crabitat recently?
Not that I know of. Hmm... The closest would be a little 409 bleach spray in the kitchen, which is on the other side of the wall the tank is on (no doors between).

12. How often do you clean the tank and how?
Tank is five weeks new, so I haven't done anything other than a little spot cleaning such as cleaning the shell shop. We had a mold issue last week, so I had the lid open long enough for the humidity to drop below 65%, but that was before we added the tinies and we waited for conditions to return to optimal before adding them.

13. Are sponges used in the water dish? If so, how are they cleaned?
No.

14. Has anything new been added to your crabitat recently?
I added a 3" fan (all plastic) a few days ago, it runs for 30 min 4x/day.

15. Is there any other information you would like to share that might be helpful (anything that is regularly part of your crab care, playtime, bathing, etc.)?
We generally don't handle the crabs unless necessary, though we enjoy watching them and often startle one we didn't notice (or he startles us). All three new crabs were given a bath when added to the tank via placing them in the fw pool and allowing them to climb out on their own. The only other thing I can think of is that while we have visually accounted for every above ground crab at least once daily, in general I am seeing less of everyone than I usually do.

16. Please describe the emergency situation in detail.
This is Inigo Montoya, at the top of a large cork "tree" on Friday morning two days ago:


He came home Saturday a week ago with two other tinies. We were going to put them straight into our 65g but discovered a mold problem, so they spent two nights in a 10g with all the proper conditions, except only 2-3" of sub because I didn't want them to dig down before we moved them to the 65g. Monday morning we put him in the fw pool, he climbed out on his own, and over the next few days we spotted him in several places around the tank. I never saw him at the food dishes or either pool, so I don't know if he's been eating or drinking. The big guys don't seem to be messing with him; in fact Inigo was the first to climb the big cork tree and huddle up with the big boys inside.

Friday morning he climbed down from the cork tree and settled in a spot at the base of the tree, where he sat for most of the next 24 hours. Once we saw him about 4 inches away, but then he returned to the same spot. At one point I could see his eyes and legs but he was so still that even his antennae were frozen. He flinched when I opened the tank but did not move. I added a dish of raw honeycomb and a bottle cap of fw. Today my husband said he saw him standing next to the bottle cap, so he moved at least a couple of inches there and then back to his same spot. Now he is huddled facing the tree:


I'm going to replace the honey dish with a fresh shell of honey, pb, and bee pollen tonight (there was already a dish of pb and applesauce in the tank but it's too far away from him). Should I add msw as well as the bottle cap of fw near him? I considered putting a hide over him, but he is literally one inch away from either leaf cover or a hole in the cork tree, we know he can move that far and he has chosen to stay in the open.

Any help is greatly appreciated! Inigo was the crab I was least worried about when we first added the new guys to the 65g, now I am really worried about him.

[MsWorld]

It sounds like he is doing his de stressing. As long as he is alive I don't think there's much you can do. Unless you want to ISO him which I personally wouldn't do cuz then he would just have to re acclimate to that tank again.


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[soilentgringa]

New crabs often appear to be hanging out in one spot for days at at a time. Just leave him be to destress and find his way around. He may even be moving around in the middle of the night then returning to that spot.

[hprmom]

Okay, thanks, y'all. It just seems like he's doing it backwards, roaming the tank and getting acquainted the first four days, and THEN sitting in one spot! I put a shell dish right next to him, he didn't even flinch this time. At least he has access to everything he needs within an inch of him, and there is plenty of everything for the bigger crabs elsewhere in the tank. I'm going out of town in a few days so hopefully he'll look better by then.

[hprmom]

It's now been three days. Early this morning he was in the same spot and mostly drawn into his shell. A couple of hours later he was gone, he's now against the glass in the back of the tank under the moss pit, so at least he's not so exposed.

I'm thinking positive and feeing hopeful, but here's a question: do hermit crabs always hang out of their shell when they pass? If so, then the fact that he is staying tucked in (just part of his legs hanging out) is a good sign?

[KayedeeLove<3]

How'd the little guy turn out?

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[hprmom]

How'd the little guy turn out?

Thanks for asking! He's moved about an inch away from the glass, but still in the same spot under the moss pit. The food and water I placed under there have been disturbed, but of course I don't know if it was by little Inigo or the big guys (who trashed the tank last night!). It's hard to tell but it looks like his shell opening is facing down, resting on the ground. Here's a pic:


I'm hoping the fact that he's staying tucked in is a positive sign, because the only two crabs I ever saw pass from PPS were clearly hanging far out of their shells.

My big concern is that I'm leaving town on Saturday, I'll be gone 1-2 weeks so I can't keep an eye on him myself. I'll have someone coming by to change out food and water, but instructing a sitter on special care is tough when even I don't know what to do. If he's just de-stressing, for how long do crabs keep this behavior up before they either return to "normal" or you check to see if they've passed? I'm still hopeful for the best, but need to leave instructions for my sitter in case... of what, I don't know!


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[KayedeeLove<3]

O.M.G. im so sorry i hope all goes well! Maybe he'll show progress! Keep us posted.

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[hprmom]

Day four. We saw Inigo moving! He made a little semi-circle under the moss pit and then settled against the glass in a hole behind the cork tree (thoughtfully left by another crab). His movements seemed slow and laborious. I feel better but I'm going to keep up the little "hospital" area under the moss pit, where it's dark and he can have easy access to high-value food without having to travel to the Big Buffet or compete for it. I may put a couple of appropriately sized shells under there as well. Hopefully he'll have improved enough before we leave town not to need special care.

[hprmom]

Day 8. Sometime within the last half hour one of our bigger crabs dug a hole nearby and dumped dirt all over him, so he is half-buried with his shell opening UP. I can see a leg waving feebly and wonder if he is trying to get up but is too weak, should I help him??

This is now three days in the same spot behind the tree. As far as I can tell he never left that spot, but every few hours his shell would change orientation so I tried not to worry. This morning I found him in the same spot but with his shell opening facing UP, so I could see his bp and first couple of legs. Which are now under a loose mound of dirt...

*edit: His leg stopped moving, he's very still and I can partially see the bp and tips of legs. The dirt over him is pretty loose so I"m not too worried about him suffocating, just don't know if he is strong enough to right himself on his own. I'm leaving him for now but would really appreciate advice asap.

*edit 2: Couldn't stand it, after an hour and a half I decided to gently pull him out of the dirt and turn him right side up. He's not limp or falling out of his shell, but he's also non-reactive. I wet the tips of his legs with fw and tapped them gently, no reaction. I set him right side up next to the shell dish of pb/honey a couple of inches from where he was half-buried. I'm hoping to see signs of movement tomorrow, but I'm leaving Sunday for 2 weeks so I'm tempted to check him again before we go.

[hprmom]

Day 9. Found him upside down with his head out and legs waving feebly in the air. I think he's in the path the others are using to get behind the tree and got knocked over. I replaced his tiny food and water dishes, set him upright next to them, and lightly misted the corner. I added a couple of shells nearby for good measure (he looks crowded in his). He was absolutely still when I picked him up, but not falling out. When I misted the corner, one leg flinched.

He's more out of his shell today (can see eyes as well as all front legs), but I don't know if that' s a good sign or a bad one. Our two crabs that died of PPS we found hanging very far out of their shells. The hubs keeps asking me to smell him, but it's too soon for that. We are going to have to check him again before we leave tomorrow morning. I know I can't really do anything else.

My concern is that if he passes, he could be sitting in the tank for two weeks until we return. I hesitate to tell our petsitter to remove him, because what if he isn't dead? If the tank doesn't smell like dead fish, should she just leave him? The other two didn't smell unless we put our noses right up to them, so I doubt the whole tank would smell. If we have trouble identifying when a crab has died, I don't think the sitter will be able to tell, either! If he sits there dead for two weeks, will the other crabs pick at or eat him?

I hate to be dwelling on the morbid--I'm still holding out hope--but I need to be practical and leave instructions. Thanks...

[JulesRolyCrab]

I'm sorry that the situation hasn't resolved yet.
When my crab died on the surface, the entire 10 gallon smelled. Not necessarily dead fish, sort of just really disgusting, bad breath. Then again, it was a 10g. I understand you have to be practical, so don't take this harshly.
I think it is good that you moved him, he doesn't seem strong enough to right himself. Two weeks is a long time..... I would wait to the last possible moment before leaving to do anything drastic. Do you think ISOing him is a good idea? I don't know if this is solid advice, it is purely your decision. However, if he's in a KK or small tank, the sitter might be able to tell better. This also prevents other crabs bothering him/no food stealing. Again, this involves moving him, so if it's not worth the risk (or you do not have an extra heater or whatnot) then don't do it.
I don't know if I can help him or make it better, but practically this might work. Whatever you decide to do is okay. Have the sitter know about the HCA or text a picture to you or whatever to determine his health.... Good luck, he might still be destressing, or something, have hope! I don't know if this helped, but you have support, no matter the decision.

[hprmom]

I think it is good that you moved him, he doesn't seem strong enough to right himself. Two weeks is a long time..... I would wait to the last possible moment before leaving to do anything drastic. Do you think ISOing him is a good idea? I don't know if this is solid advice, it is purely your decision. However, if he's in a KK or small tank, the sitter might be able to tell better. This also prevents other crabs bothering him/no food stealing. Again, this involves moving him, so if it's not worth the risk (or you do not have an extra heater or whatnot) then don't do it.
I don't know if I can help him or make it better, but practically this might work. Whatever you decide to do is okay. Have the sitter know about the HCA or text a picture to you or whatever to determine his health.... Good luck, he might still be destressing, or something, have hope! I don't know if this helped, but you have support, no matter the decision.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I do have a 10g and extra heater, we just dismantled and stored all of it last weekend. When he first came home he was in the 10g and barely moved for two days. Then when we moved him to the 65g he seemed to adapt so well, snuggling up to the big boys, finding his own napping spots at the top of the tree, five good days before this latest behavior started. I don't know if moving him back to a bare bones 10g without any company would be more or less stressful. It certainly would be easier for the sitter, though. If anyone else can weigh in to help me decide if it's worth the risk, I would sure appreciate it... I'd have to get it done tonight and let the tank/sub come up to temp, then put him in first thing in the morning right as we're leaving. So I wouldn't know how he's adjusting except to hear from the sitter.

Right now he's sitting exactly as I left him about five hours ago, right in front of the food dish. He's out about as much as a napping crab would be, so not hanging completely out, and not moving.

[JulesRolyCrab]

You know, maybe you should just leave him there. You've been able to tell if he's alive so far, I find that it's fairly easy to tell if they're dead (unfortunately), even when I first started crabbing. I'm not someone different, but know that both options have pros. It will work out.

[hprmom]

You know, maybe you should just leave him there. You've been able to tell if he's alive so far, I find that it's fairly easy to tell if they're dead (unfortunately), even when I first started crabbing. I'm not someone different, but know that both options have pros. It will work out.

Thanks, @JulesRolyCrab, you really are helping me a lot and I appreciate it.

I've always had a hard time telling (well, that's going on only two experiences!). Mostly I think I get scared because of all the warnings and anecdotes I've read of crabs that look dead but are really alive/surface molting/destressing/etc.

The little guy does not appear to have moved at all in the last 12 hours. We'll assess the situation in the morning. I'm guessing if he falls out of his shell, that's it. The harder situation is if he is not moving but doesn't fall out. Hopefully it'll be clear.

Funny how a situation can change perspective... Just a few weeks ago the brand new 65g habitat looked like a hermit crab paradise... now it looks like a beautiful glass death trap. Poor crab...