How long is thier memory?
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How long is thier memory?
I expect it's not the length of a goldfish (a few seconds or whatnot) but does anyone know how long a hermies memory is?
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They only have survivalist memories. This means that they remember that the best food is around here, or that if I climb up here, I can find more water. They aren't going to remember little things like having the temp drop for a day or something like that, although mine seem to remember where my UTH is, because if the temp does drop, they all seem to run over to it (might just be because it's warmer though)
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) and I was trying to get her to crawl onto her hand and she backed up because of the different smell. Which would be a survivalist memory.
I love the little guys -
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Whenever I move the food dish for cleaning, they wonder all over the spot where it was, like, hey, where'd it go? What a cruel joke. 
I've read recently that they can't even remember each other very long, which is the real reason returning molters from an ISO need to be bathed in a community pool or all together, because otherwise they think it's another newbie being introduced to the tank. Hmmm.....
I've read recently that they can't even remember each other very long, which is the real reason returning molters from an ISO need to be bathed in a community pool or all together, because otherwise they think it's another newbie being introduced to the tank. Hmmm.....
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crabber wrote:Whenever I move the food dish for cleaning, they wonder all over the spot where it was, like, hey, where'd it go? What a cruel joke.
I've read recently that they can't even remember each other very long, which is the real reason returning molters from an ISO need to be bathed in a community pool or all together, because otherwise they think it's another newbie being introduced to the tank. Hmmm.....
Awww, poor crabbies.
Great april fools joke, though. 
Hm. I'd argue against that. What's wierd is in some situations, that does happen, but like with Rose and Bon Jovi recently, you could tell very clearly that they missed eachother. Maybe they're mates. *runs off to tease Bon Jovi and Rose*
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DustAndEchoes
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Just to play "devil's advocate" here, it could simply be a matter of two of the same species recognizing another of it's species. My straws did the same thing when Cody came up from his molt.Hm. I'd argue against that. What's wierd is in some situations, that does happen, but like with Rose and Bon Jovi recently, you could tell very clearly that they missed eachother. Maybe they're mates. *runs off to tease Bon Jovi and Rose*
I LOVE to assign human qualities to my hermies, it's part of the fun of having them, but scientifically speaking this is not supported by any evidence. They don't really have "feelings" the way we do.......I'm sure there's many who will disagree, and you're welcome to.
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crabber wrote: Just to play "devil's advocate" here, it could simply be a matter of two of the same species recognizing another of it's species. My straws did the same thing when Cody came up from his molt.
I LOVE to assign human qualities to my hermies, it's part of the fun of having them, but scientifically speaking this is not supported by any evidence. They don't really have "feelings" the way we do.......I'm sure there's many who will disagree, and you're welcome to.
I do think they remember their mates. Another example, not mates, but just an example is Alteaque and Clawdette (both PPs, female) and Kenda and Ayiana (Kenda PP, Ayiana Ruggie, female)
Spinda and Pearl... (both Es, female)
They probably have more feelings than any human will ever understand, especially not be able to proove it by science.
Just my two cents, though.
Lakota
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I knew a lot of hermie lovers would disagree. Here's how I support my argument:
The way the human brain processes emotion (like friendship-that warm and fuzzy feeling) is on a subconscious level. I tell my daughter to clean her room and she gets angry. This is because her brain hears the words "clean your room" and subconsciously her brain begins to riffle through all it's files and associates those words with memories of being stopped from more pleasurable activities to do this task. Her subconscious brain then releases chemicals which create the emotion of anger.
A hermie's brain is simply not big enough to store this kind of data, and even though I don't like it, that's science baby. You can still disagree, but that's your subconscious brain riffling through all your memories of your babies and creating that emotion for you.
A fact can be proved or disproved, opinions can't be, and you are welcome to yours. Being the devil's advocate again, I am not a crab, and I can never say with any real certainty what a crab thinks.
Here's how I support my argument:The way the human brain processes emotion (like friendship-that warm and fuzzy feeling) is on a subconscious level. I tell my daughter to clean her room and she gets angry. This is because her brain hears the words "clean your room" and subconsciously her brain begins to riffle through all it's files and associates those words with memories of being stopped from more pleasurable activities to do this task. Her subconscious brain then releases chemicals which create the emotion of anger.
A hermie's brain is simply not big enough to store this kind of data, and even though I don't like it, that's science baby. You can still disagree, but that's your subconscious brain riffling through all your memories of your babies and creating that emotion for you.
A fact can be proved or disproved, opinions can't be, and you are welcome to yours. Being the devil's advocate again, I am not a crab, and I can never say with any real certainty what a crab thinks.
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DustAndEchoes
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I strongly believe they recognize when somethng in their environment changes, like when another crab is gone.
We've noticed that each one has their personalities, so they probably do attatch them selves to another crab (maybe more) because of the familiarity.
I'm sure in a few days Hattie will go on from the spot she's been hanging around. I noticed bout ten minutes ago she was wandering to the other side of the tank.
We've noticed that each one has their personalities, so they probably do attatch them selves to another crab (maybe more) because of the familiarity.
I'm sure in a few days Hattie will go on from the spot she's been hanging around. I noticed bout ten minutes ago she was wandering to the other side of the tank.
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I think I like that explanation, for competition purposes it would do them good to notice how many other hermies are there, and so they would be attuned to when one was gone.DustAndEchoes wrote:I strongly believe they recognize when something in their environment changes, like when another crab is gone.
We've noticed that each one has their personalities, so they probably do attatch them selves to another crab (maybe more) because of the familiarity.
I'm sure in a few days Hattie will go on from the spot she's been hanging around. I noticed bout ten minutes ago she was wandering to the other side of the tank.
I don't mean to spoil anyone's notions here, it's just for me instinctive behavior is every bit as fascinating as emotional.
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wow, thi is an interesting conversation that I wish I could have come upon earlier, unfrtunately I was at work. I am happy that people have taken such a great interest in behavior, brains, etc.... Unfortunately, I am going to have to disagree with some things being said here.
We, as humans, do not use only 3% of our brains, this is horribly inneffeciant, and is simply false information. Humans use almost 100% of our brains, its just that most of that is busy doing things like processing sensation and perception information, such as vision, smell, tactile information, etc. A large majority of the brain just keeps the organism running. Starting from the back, near your brainstem, is the most basic of processes, breathing, heart beat, etc...as you move forward you get more complex, in the middle, you have things like the hypothalamus that process memories...THe most complex things take place on the outer portion of your brain, the cerebral cortex, which is divided up into specialized portions, or lobes. The frontal lobe is where much of your "conciousness" is located, while farther back you have interesting areas such as Wernicke's area which processes meaningful speach. So in short, almost all, of not all of the brain is being used all of the time.
Things such as the unconscious are actually very outdated constructs put forth by sigmund freud. Truthfully, things are usually labled as an unconscious process, which is actually what is taking place throughout most of your brain. As your frontal lobe is pretty much the center of active thought and "conscious processes."
Memory is an interesting area, we know where memory is processed, but where "long term memory" is actually stored remains a mystery. Short term memory processes have been well known, and occur in many organisms, they were an early development in brain anatomy that we share all the way back with reptiles, and possibly with earlier organisms in our evolutionary history.
As for things such as mood, that is generally dictated by neurotransmitters. These act upon neurons on the brain at the most basic level, they tell neruons to either speed up, or slow down, and depending upon where they are presant, can alter your mood. Unfortunately, this is the reason why for a long time, pscyhoactive medication didnt work very well, because it was mainly dousing the entire brain in an artificial neurotransmitter, not targeting any area specifically. As we have advanced in medicine, we are able to replicate these neurotransmitters, and find ones that selectively target particular areas of the brain, solving particular mental disorders.
A little more on learning and memory: Just about any organism can learn and remember somewhat, just as long as it has a few neurons nockin' around in its body. Memory, often times is synonymous with learned behavior. For instance, a crab may remember where the food dish is, but that is because it has learned that it can get food in that spot, every time it goes to that particular spot in the tank, it is rewarded with food, which reinforces the crab for going to that particular spot, after time, the crab has learned that this is where food is.
As for actual behavior in LHC's, their brains do not really support the full gamut of behavior that our brains do. However, there is something in behavior that is passed on to offspring. So a crab that is mean may be predisposed to aggressive behavior, as that type of behavior was a successful survival method, for its parents. On the otherhand, it may have only learned that being agressive pays off, by pushing a smaller crab aside at the food dish, he may be rewarded with better food. Much of behavior is still not completely understood, and there are different theories in the psychological studies.
Sorry my post is so long....I am only about two months away from my bachelors in psychology!
We, as humans, do not use only 3% of our brains, this is horribly inneffeciant, and is simply false information. Humans use almost 100% of our brains, its just that most of that is busy doing things like processing sensation and perception information, such as vision, smell, tactile information, etc. A large majority of the brain just keeps the organism running. Starting from the back, near your brainstem, is the most basic of processes, breathing, heart beat, etc...as you move forward you get more complex, in the middle, you have things like the hypothalamus that process memories...THe most complex things take place on the outer portion of your brain, the cerebral cortex, which is divided up into specialized portions, or lobes. The frontal lobe is where much of your "conciousness" is located, while farther back you have interesting areas such as Wernicke's area which processes meaningful speach. So in short, almost all, of not all of the brain is being used all of the time.
Things such as the unconscious are actually very outdated constructs put forth by sigmund freud. Truthfully, things are usually labled as an unconscious process, which is actually what is taking place throughout most of your brain. As your frontal lobe is pretty much the center of active thought and "conscious processes."
Memory is an interesting area, we know where memory is processed, but where "long term memory" is actually stored remains a mystery. Short term memory processes have been well known, and occur in many organisms, they were an early development in brain anatomy that we share all the way back with reptiles, and possibly with earlier organisms in our evolutionary history.
As for things such as mood, that is generally dictated by neurotransmitters. These act upon neurons on the brain at the most basic level, they tell neruons to either speed up, or slow down, and depending upon where they are presant, can alter your mood. Unfortunately, this is the reason why for a long time, pscyhoactive medication didnt work very well, because it was mainly dousing the entire brain in an artificial neurotransmitter, not targeting any area specifically. As we have advanced in medicine, we are able to replicate these neurotransmitters, and find ones that selectively target particular areas of the brain, solving particular mental disorders.
A little more on learning and memory: Just about any organism can learn and remember somewhat, just as long as it has a few neurons nockin' around in its body. Memory, often times is synonymous with learned behavior. For instance, a crab may remember where the food dish is, but that is because it has learned that it can get food in that spot, every time it goes to that particular spot in the tank, it is rewarded with food, which reinforces the crab for going to that particular spot, after time, the crab has learned that this is where food is.
As for actual behavior in LHC's, their brains do not really support the full gamut of behavior that our brains do. However, there is something in behavior that is passed on to offspring. So a crab that is mean may be predisposed to aggressive behavior, as that type of behavior was a successful survival method, for its parents. On the otherhand, it may have only learned that being agressive pays off, by pushing a smaller crab aside at the food dish, he may be rewarded with better food. Much of behavior is still not completely understood, and there are different theories in the psychological studies.
Sorry my post is so long....I am only about two months away from my bachelors in psychology!
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Found a few interesting publications. Some are a bit professional, but they document some recent memory experimentation with crabs, namely long-term memory, and they are suggestive of some of what was already discussed earlier - survival-related memories, learned behaviours and conditioning, and molecular/intracellular-based memories.
It is interesting to read some comments made in these articles, "findings are consistent with those reported for vertebrates..." and "distinct mechanisms subserve these different types of memory in the crab" - (if you choose to read the articles, consider these comments within the context in which they were written).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Citation
http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/ab ... 22/18/8305
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:ou8 ... clnk&cd=38
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/a ... u.victoria
Still, for the question, "How long are their memories?", there is no specific answer, but long-term memory is defined in one of these articles as "days or longer." So if in the lab the crab shows some evidence of displaying long-term memory, the studies suggest, at minimum, memory lasting for days.
Maybe others can find additional materials, comments.
Dionysianexile ~ I would like to hear more of what you have to say, too, since you have some good access to up-to-date information in the classroom (and I'm sure some good knowledge re: antagonists on receptors). Also, I thought you would be interested to see the research methods used by these researchers, especially viral vector-mediated gene transfer and the lesser-invasive medium (in NIH article) which allows readings from the optical ganglia.
It is interesting to read some comments made in these articles, "findings are consistent with those reported for vertebrates..." and "distinct mechanisms subserve these different types of memory in the crab" - (if you choose to read the articles, consider these comments within the context in which they were written).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Citation
http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/ab ... 22/18/8305
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:ou8 ... clnk&cd=38
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/a ... u.victoria
Still, for the question, "How long are their memories?", there is no specific answer, but long-term memory is defined in one of these articles as "days or longer." So if in the lab the crab shows some evidence of displaying long-term memory, the studies suggest, at minimum, memory lasting for days.
Maybe others can find additional materials, comments.
Dionysianexile ~ I would like to hear more of what you have to say, too, since you have some good access to up-to-date information in the classroom (and I'm sure some good knowledge re: antagonists on receptors). Also, I thought you would be interested to see the research methods used by these researchers, especially viral vector-mediated gene transfer and the lesser-invasive medium (in NIH article) which allows readings from the optical ganglia.