HCA: Hermit Crab Association

OK I'm going to start at the beginning and be very thorough so hopefully one of you really old-time crabbers can figure out what's going on--I'm pretty experienced myself and this has me befuddled.
In November, back when I only had Simon, Garfunkle, and Gimp, all PPs, Gimp slowed down over the course of about two weeks, and ultimately died, still in hi shell. Now, the SAME THING is happening to Houdini (PP) and Eggplant (Rug). I just can't figure this out, and haven't seen anything like it before--Houdini may already be dead--he's retracted but not tight and completely motionless. Eggplant is still moving, slightly, but doesn't respond to touch or stimulation. Everyone is kept in my 10G, at temperatures between 72-75*, with humidity usually around 75%. I have a large saltwater dish and smaller freshwater one, lots of climbing toys, a second level with FB (playsand on the lower level), and a good variety of food--regular hermit crab food, as well as fruits and veggies and cuttlebone. They are kept alongside Simon and Garfunkle, both of which are hardy and have successful molts, and newer crabs Mazda, Jinxie, Pinchy, Ghost and Magic.
Whenever a crab comes down with this, I never notice until it's too late--since they're noctournal anyway, and I have so many running around, it's usually in the final stages of this illness that I can tell that they're not "participating in the festivities", if you will.
When Gimp got ill I ISO'd him and then cleaned the tank top to bottom. I ISO all new crabs for a few days to make sure they're not suffering PPs--oh and I know it's not PPS with Houdini or Eggplant because I got Houdini in October and he's been very well-adjusted ever since, and got Eggplant in November and he's been fine too--none of the usual PPS signs for either of them.
If I've left anything else out I'll edit or augment this post, or any readers let me know.
I need the really experienced crabbers' advice here--sorry to be brash but I have a pretty good idea what I'm doing and this has left me mystified.
ktm

Alright, how long have you had every one of these crabs before this started?

Simon and Garfunkle: July 2004--Pet World (GOOD local shop)
Pinchy and Houdini: October 2004--Petco (pretty good)
Gimp: October 2004--Petsmart (horrid. Simply horrid.)
Eggplant (Rug), Mazda (E), Ghost: November 2004--Petco
Jinxie: December 2004--Petco
Magic: December 2004--Petco

Above are the names and dates I bought them. All are PPs unless otherwise specified. Also listed are the stores they came from--Gimp, who did the same thing Houdini and Eggplant are in the middle of, came from Petsmart and was a pity purchase.
BTW, I know I'm being defensive, but don't chastise me for only having one E and one Rug. I'm working on it.
ktm

As I said above, I'm sure it's not PPS for Houdini, since I've had him for about two months and this is a fairly sudden thing. Eggplant, now I don't know WHAT'S going on--in between posts here I've been attempting to take care of him--gave him a brief dip in the saltwater dish since I wasn't sure he's able to get there himself, then put him in the food dish, where I think he's eating. He's alternating now between being slumped out and half retracted, and his armour leg is all akimbo. Heck if I know what's going on now!
ktm

I have the same thing happening in my main tank (the 29G). Every couple weeks I have two that are dead. My tank is set up darn close to what yours is.

I have two theories:

1. Weather/pressure changes, signaling fall winter. Like Christa stated a while back they are diying upside down like crickets...their equilibruim gets all messed up with the season change and they die. I have had 2 die like that this year. I also tend to lose more hermies when the season changes or when there is a major temperature change. For example, my largest Indo Speedy died when the temps went below zero here and it was harshly cold and snowy. ALthough the tank environment remained the same there was definitly something that affected her. I had had her for almost a year.

2. PPS...I really think that some hermies are more effected long term from PPS that we really know. Yes there are those that die with in days, weeks, or a couple months. But what about the unknown reasons for the deaths that occur later in the 5-6-7 month range...even a year. THere have got to be less impacting PPS that doesnt effect so harsh as the PPS that kills at the week-month range. I really think there is a "slower reacting" PPS that is killing hermies far down the road.

I read this carefully, and I'm stumped too. But I think that PPS can occur well beyond the first two or three weeks. We really don't know the extent of the poor care, rough handling, or how long in these conditions before we purchase a crab. Perhaps with some crabs it just takes longer to "catch up" to them, but despite your good care, they can't bounce back.

I hope Eggplant and Houdini make it.

You don't have mold, do you? Any musty smells? The flip side of keeping a humid environment is that molds grow easily. Gills need to be moist and if molds or bacteria grow on the gills, it's like a crabby version of pneumonia.

I'm stumped as well--but I'm leaning towards pps because I keep reading of crabs from bad conditions passing 3 to 5 months after purchase--I agree w/the others about the negative effects of a poor environment showing up later. I also want to say AND PLEASE don't anyone on here think that I'm knocking what you are doing because I'm not--okay??
I bought my 8 crabs in August of '03 and I FLAT REFUSE to purchase any new ones--as much as I'd like to do that I just feel like maybe (and this is strictly my opinion--no personal exp. to back it up) but I feel that maybe the different areas crabs are from that some might have an illness or hidden something that they are immune to but it might effect a crab from another region--that's why I don't get any different kinds or new crabs--I worry that I might accidentally bring some kind of a bug (if you will) into the crabitat that will hurt the other crabs--just my opinion. I REALLY hope you figure it out--I'm so sorry for your loss.

Are all 10 of your crabs kept in your 10 gallon? If so, that could definitely stress them out, even to death.

Yeah, to Sheb and others--I'm leaning to PPS, much as it surprises me--I've never experienced an onset of PPS so long after I've owned the crabs. And Sheb, I can totally understand your POV on this--I've always kind of thought that crabs are better off in "batches", hopefully from the same petstore or even same shipment. Lol maybe I hope they've already made friends with each other on their home beach.
Oh, and Goarthur, I'm sure you're just trying to help, but my crabs are all teenys and smalls--they're quite comfortable and have lots of running and hiding space in a 2-level 10G. Besides, it's just my relatively new crabs that are acting up--not the ones that have been in the environment for a long period of time.
I think now I've just resigned myself to my poor guys' demise. It really amazes me, though, how hardy Simon and Garfunkle are--my originals.
It also makes me wonder if maybe we're attributing too much to PPS--maybe there's some other disease that crabs get, that we haven't yet figured out, that we say is PPS purely for lack of a better knowledge of the illness' source. Just like maybe the flipping over and dying as the seasons change isn't because of the seasons, those actions happen to follow that coincidental trend. But I'm not a biologist, that's just speculation.
ktm

The next day--Houdini's dead, died flipped over on his "back", still tucked into his shell--just like Gimp. Eggplant is still hangin' in there, but...get this...I think he may be paralyzed. He is out of his shell, but I'm trying the cup method and leaving him in the tank, but he keeps falling onto his back--he'll right himself for a moment, even look like he's about to scoot into his shell, and then suddenly fall over. He also never moves his left legs or BP--all the work seems to be done with his LP and right legs. I hate watching him die, since he's constantly moving and waving his legs, but he won't stay in his shell when I put him in, and frankly I'm more than a little scared I'll do more harm than good. Eggplant's behavior is quite different than Houdini's and Gimp''s, and I just don't know what to make of it. Seems almost like suicide.
Any ideas?
ktm

- First, by PPS I'm guessin you mean Post Pet Shop syndrome.

- Second, the crab with his leg akimbo, and can't move one side of his legs, it sounds like a neurological problem. Perhaps a virus for crabs.

Next, I wonder if the shorter/dimmer days for US folks are stressing out the crabs and making them more susceptible to disease. A theoretical fix for this would be a bright light, 5000lux or more. Start it on a timer for 8 hours a day, after 7 days go to 10 hours per day, after 7 days go to 12 hours per day. See if that helps any.

BTW, lux is a measurement of light output AT A CERTAIN DISTANCE. So a light might be 5000 lux at 24", but only 4000 lux at 36". So you have to put those lights close to the cage.

I know this sounds weird, becase crabs shy away from the light, right?
So what are they getting in their natural home they aren't getting in their cages?

For Anomoly, I would up your temp to about 78-79. Your range sounded a little low. Your humidity sounds ok.

PPS is "Post Purchase Syndrome", but you get the gist of it.
I was thinking possible neurological problem too, but now he's moving all his legs, flailing them, in fact. He's out of his shell, in a cup w/ his old shell and an appropriate-sized new one, laying in his back flailing madly. When I try to help him into his shell he pinches me, but doesn't seem to have the strength to right himself--I think he'll be doing that cricket thing Christa was talking about on a related thread.
If I keep my temp at 78-79 everyone becomes lethargic. 76 has worked fine for years, and I intend to keep it in that range.
Right now I have a ghetto, makeshift heat lamp over the cage--just a 15watt desk lamp shining through my plexiglass lid to help w/ the heat. I'll probably be making a trip to Petco tonight and might see about timed lighting--that might be the key!
ktm

I am wondering about natural light myself...maybe the crabbies need some sun...of course they should not get it directly...I invested in the moonglow bulbs for my buddies and one of my bigger tanks was in the basement...all conditions were acceptable but I did have a few adoptees die... and while in the basement I found moulters to come up lighter in color than usual...
in the past 3 months I have adopted 15 crabs from 8 different people...I put them in my 20 L upstairs, I have a huge southwest window...the tank is tucked beside my sideboard on the farthest wall, but frankly it gets quite alot of sun between 1 and 4 pm. Especially now in winter when sun is so low on the horizon.
At first I covered them with a tea towel thinking it would be too bright...but one day I wanted to check humidity and there were 9 crabs out and about...they had crowded into the sunny corner where the towel didn't cover...I thought maybe they liked the heat...anyway since about the middle of December I don't put the towel on anymore. I wanted to see what they were doing. (since I am home for the holidays) I am not too worried about over exposure to light because I have caves, plants and cocohuts for them to hide in if they so choose...I find at least 7 guys out between the sunny times; I swear they like it! Squishy one of my oldest E's is out there every day! He has molted for me 5 times has grown 3 shell sizes and has to be one of my healthiest crabs! So far I haven't lost any of the adoptees either!
Well I am good at observing, and not too sure if I should assume that the benefits of natural light outweigh those of artificial...my horse sense tells me we as beings need natural light to process vitamine A...Carotein is a component of vitamin A...and necessary for the wellbeing of our crab buddies. I wonder if it is a stretch to consider that they may need natural light to process carotein?? I am not completely satisfied with my observations since I do not have the opposing light methods at play. I do though wonder if the maladay you guys have described could be afflictions of light deficiency. Carotein or Vitamine A deficiency in mammals causes neurological problems....could this paralysis be that? Wish I knew a good scientist!

This sounds like poisoning. If a crab is going to die from capture/shipping/pet store stress, it will die within the first month of purchase. The only ones I had that died later than that were white rugosus, I think the white color indicates some kind of diet deficiency. The use of household cleaning products anywhere near the tanks will kill crabs. If you aren't using any chemicals around them, then what dechlorinator are you using? I had many of my E's die during molts when I used Repti-Safe, and they are just fine now that I switched to Jungle's Start Right or Aquarium Pharmaceuticals' Tap Water Conditioner.