Fortunado may be dying...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue May 23, 2006 7:59 pm

One of my quiet crabs, fortunado, has dropped a leg, and now I've found, his big pincer. This has all happened today. He is quite lethargic, but I picked him up and put him at the edge of his hidie, and he crawled in. My crabitat conditions are close to ideal; can anything be done to save him?

Could he be suffering, is my main question?

What a crab day it's been for me...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue May 23, 2006 8:35 pm

I'm sorry he's not doing well. It sounds like PPS (post Purchase Stress) to me. If he's not being bullied I would leave him be, if he's being bullied ISO him from the other crabs. You may want to put some pure honey in the the tat, keep it warm, humid and dark in a quiet place. I'm not one to beat around the bush, losing more than one limb in a matter of a few hours is not a good sign. I would think he may be suffering. I lost a Ruggie this way, and couldn't do anything but watch as he lost limbs and died that day. I'm not saying your little guy is doomed, HCs are be amazingly resilient.

starmaiden · Post by **starmaiden** » Tue May 23, 2006 8:53 pm

Sorry Fortunato is not doing good right now. [smilie=sad.gif]

All you can do is what crabber recommends. He may pull through and regenerate his lost limbs his next molt.

In case you didn't know, post purchase stress happens because crabs are caught in the wild and usually suffer far less than ideal conditions and handling before they arrive at the pet store. The stress of being caught, shipped, and then displayed in a pet store is just too much for some crabs and it catches up with them over time even if tank conditions are ideal.

I will keep my claws crossed for Fortunato.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue May 23, 2006 8:57 pm

well, hmm... It's so much easier with cats or fish. Is euthanasia an option on the table, or is too extreme to consider that yet?

annopia · Post by **annopia** » Tue May 23, 2006 9:08 pm

Poor Fortunado! I lost my very first PP that way, named Aggie. But my conditions, I know now, were horrid, and you seem to have the best conditions supplied for Fortunado. Since it seems like he was a recent purchase, I would guess, like crabber, that it is PPS. I will be thinking of your little buddies (both of the ones who are having trouble today).

Caroline

eta: I would think that euthanasia would not be advisable at this stage because even though losing two legs in short succesion is ominous, his chances are much higher than 0%.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue May 23, 2006 9:11 pm

alright, we'll just have to see how he does. Thanks for the concern.

Abilor

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue May 23, 2006 9:14 pm

that is a little extreme at this point...he still has a chance of survival. I'm not a hermie anatomy expert, but if I remember right, they have no or very little nerve endings. pain isn't a huge issuse with the loss of a limb...

the only suffering would be suffocating (damaged gills that are beyond the repair of good humidity levels) or shock/stress related things, all which were caused by being harvested, held at the distributor, and then sitting in a bad pet store.

There's nothing you can do, except offer the honey that was mentioned, and maintain the good temp/humidity levels. don't have the humidity over the upper 70's, since coming from less than ideal low humidity to your good high humidity might've caused some breathing problems.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed May 24, 2006 1:02 am

Well, now he's eating. Not even the honey, but he dragged himself over to the food dish with apple and peanut butter, and seems to be chowing down.

The whole experience kind of aggravates me, for two reasons. Like when I started getting into fish, you try and do so much to understand what you're up against, but you still end up making "classic" mistakes. There's this generic American attitude about pets that makes it seem so simple, when in fact there's always so much more to it. Case in point, the great article Crabber pointed me to about PPS:

"Okay, I am prepared to deal with the flack I will get for blaming owners who fail to recognize the importance of maintaining temperature and humidity ranges. But there it is! There is an inherent mistake created when we relate heat and humidity in absolute terms! When we reply to inquiries with a comment like "set your heat and humidity to 80/80 and you can't go wrong", well, we do! While 80/80 is within the tolerable ranges, it does not communicate that these settings are the higher end of the range, and that there is and should be other temperatures and humidity levels within the crabitat. I realize that this occurs more out of a convention of speech and is not meant to mislead people. The sad reality is that people (especially new crabbers) take these stated levels literally and they worry and painstakingly try to achieve this exact ratio. What worries me about this is that we need to recognize AND COMMUNICATE that a crabitat should have RANGES of heat and temperature."

This is great info; I wish I'd had it at the beginning. In hindsight, of course, it makes just as much sense as fishkeeping does, where you have to acclimate for pH, GH, TDS, etc. Nothing I was told in introductory crabbing materials could have prepared me for this, nor should it have, since they're primarily meant for folks as a rude survival guide, not a thrive manual (you mean they eat fruit? WOW!).

Underneath it all, however, my true rage is directed at the pet industry itself. I have no issue referring to them as "barterers of death." I guess what really gets me is the disrespect of life itself. I'm the kind of person where though spiders scare the heck out of me, I rescue them from pools or windshields, I let them lay eggs in my car, and I sleep comfortably with several in the corner of the room in summer since it keeps mosquitoes out. Just because I don't like it or care for it, I at least respect it because it's alive!

[break out violins]

I've already perused the activism forum of the site, and saw immediately how much this hobby has in common with aquariums, and I'm guessing home aviaries as well. Mammocentrism is what it is, a prolific ignorance of non-fuzzy creatures, their care, and importance, and now I'm cursed because I see suffering creatures at any pet store. It's the futility that gets me most, the faceless, undifferentiated cellular organism that is an American corporation and its total lack of moral responsibility other than requisite posturing and tactics.

I'm really tired, my crab is dying, and I'm just sort of rambling now...

good night.

starmaiden · Post by **starmaiden** » Wed May 24, 2006 2:42 am

Abilor,

I read the whole article, and think the author is mistaken when she says that 80/80 is the higher end of the range. I always understood it that 74 was the low end, and 88 was the high end temp wise, and 60 was the low end humidity wise. High temps and high humidity is fatal, but I always understood this to be 90/90 for example. I think what she is trying to say is that your crabitat needs to have a range of temps and humidities so your crabs can go where its warmer or cooler depending on their comfort.

In the emergency template, you stated that you clearly had a range in your crabitat. If I remember correctly, it was something like 84 over the UTH and 75 in the hidie hut. I don't think you could have done anything better to help Fortunado out. I think it was just bad luck and he's got a bad case of PPS. He may still pull through. Doesn't his name mean 'Fortunate'?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed May 24, 2006 9:31 am

I sure hope Fortunado is still with you today. My very first crab died after dropping a leg and his BP but he had NO interest in eating or doing anything for the day or 2 before he died. At the time my conditions were BAD and yours are GREAT so I'd say he's got as good a chance as could be. PPS sucks. Good luck!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed May 24, 2006 10:31 am

Doesn't his name mean 'Fortunate'?

Actually, it's a character from an Edgar Allen Poe story, 'The Cask of Amontillado' I think.

I hope your little guy is doing better in anycase, PPS is a bugger.

It may not help much, but at least know that you've done all you can for your little friend. It's the problem with dealing with pet stores, too many are short on quality information on how to care for pets, and are too concerned with shoveling them out of thier stores as quick as possible to make a buck.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed May 24, 2006 12:32 pm

I like the idea of the gradual ISO method. I will try whatever I can do to decrease the PPS rate, because it's just horrendous. I haven't had enough expereince with it to say it is effective with PPS, but if we don't try it we'll never know.

Mormegil · Post by **Mormegil** » Wed May 24, 2006 3:43 pm

starmaiden wrote:Sorry Fortunato is not doing good right now. All you can do is what crabber recommends. He may pull through and regenerate his lost limbs his next molt.

In case you didn't know, post purchase stress happens because crabs are caught in the wild and usually suffer far less than ideal conditions and handling before they arrive at the pet store. The stress of being caught, shipped, and then displayed in a pet store is just too much for some crabs and it catches up with them over time even if tank conditions are ideal.

I will keep my claws crossed for Fortunato.

There seems to be some differences of opinion on what causes "PPS" death.

In light of the fact that there are a lot of instances of hermit crabs living for years in much less than ideal conditions as far as humidity and temp goes, then dying within a few weeks after being put into an "ideal" crabitat.

Over at Coenobita.org, they feel that a major cause is the inability of the crab to adjust to the sudden change in humidity levels. They suggest you put your crab in iso at a low humidity level (comparable to the Pet store - maybe 60%), then up it to 70% in 3-4 days, then to whatever you have in your main tat.

They also surmise that giving them a few weeks in iso lets them build up their strength as they don't have to compete for food against healthy crabs who already have staked their terratory.

I personally haven't tried this yet, so I don't really have an opinion. And I've only been at it a bit more than a month.

Edit: I think I read about it on Crab Street Journal.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu May 25, 2006 6:02 pm

I am sorry to hear about your crab.

I am going to try the gradual increase method with any new crabs I get.

There is a good article/discussion on Temp/Humidity ranges at Coenobita.org that stated a lot of your concerns... you should check it out and maybe have something to add or an idea to help the problem.

starmaiden · Post by **starmaiden** » Fri May 26, 2006 2:18 am

Mormegil wrote:

In light of the fact that there are a lot of instances of hermit crabs living for years in much less than ideal conditions as far as humidity and temp goes, then dying within a few weeks after being put into an "ideal" crabitat.

Over at Coenobita.org, they feel that a major cause is the inability of the crab to adjust to the sudden change in humidity levels.

I read the article at Coenobita.org after I had made my initial post in this thread, and it seems to me that poor conditions before purchase are still an issue. People can go for weeks without eating and survive, but they can't end their starvation period by eating a steak! They have to gradually work back up to normal foods again over time. It must be the same with crabs and humidity. If conditions were ideal from the time that the crabs were harvested until they reached our crabitats, this would not be a problem.

I am going to try the gradual increase method with any new crabs I get.

I plan on using this method with any new crabs I get as well Featherscrab. I was lucky in that none of my crabs were lost due to PPS. I even had a crab bury itself and molt as soon as I brought it home! This may be because I had a new tank and increased temps and humidity over a few days which inadvertently gave them time to adjust.

I plan on exploring the Coenobita.org site some more!