Fish Experts?

[Kleinerhejhog]

Does anyone know of a forum as good as this one for freshwater tropical fish? I had fish for years in Michigan, but here in Texas I am having a much more difficult time for some reason. I just have a hard time believing I am getting good advice at PetSmart. Although the one young lady there was dead on telling me to use Prime.

[wodesorel]

I like fishlore forums a lot. They don't always sugarcoat, but they give very good advice.

You should check and see if there's an an aquarium society for your area - they can help with anything that might be a local challenge, like water composition. I moved a half-hour to a different water source and have had issues ever since. Sometimes it's not what we're doing!

[Kleinerhejhog]

Thanks. I'll start with fish lore; I do better with forums than with people, lol, but that does give me another option.

[Makena95GT]

I work at PetSmart and I fully endorse Prime as a water conditioner as unlike almost all other it detoxifies ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate which will keep your fish safe during the initial cycle.

In texas we have hard, alkaline water, so keep that in mind. My pH is consistently 8.2. Hardness is always off the charts.

Dont bother using any chemical additives to change this. That only creates spikes and dips in those parameters. Best bet is to use natural driftwood or peat moss in a baggie in your filter, but the driftwood works best.

Fishlore is awesome. You can search up PetSmart: Behind the fish wall on there and read up on a good article.


How are you acclimating your fish? How big is your tank? Heater? Filter? How many fish are you trying to add at once? What types of fish?

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[Kleinerhejhog]

I take water samples in to PetSmart to be tested; they always tell me the water is super hard, and the nitrate? is usually high, because I have a chronic tendancy to over feed. So I do regular water changes, including vacuuming.

The set up I have is second hand. I got it about a year ago from a friend who hadn't had it very long. It took a couple of months to get it any where close to stable. Not sure if it was just time, or that I ditched the sand she had used and put in gravel that finally turned the corner.

I have two black skirt tetras that I have had for a couple of years, moved from a five gallon tank. There's four neon tetras that I got last fall. I'd had a betta that also moved from the five gallon, lost him and replaced him a couple of months ago. Also added a coupe of algae eaters a little while back; I forget to specifically tell a pet sitter to not leave the light on 24/7, and the tank turned orange. They fixed that right quick.

Last week I got four red fin tetras. Next day I could only see three. Next day I could only see two and one belly up. Took that one back, exchanged for a new one, and got four Mickey Mouse plays. In the morning I could see all four red fins. Two days later I scooped out two red fins, took them back for a refund, last night took out one more, and this morning took out the last one. The platys are fine, but for two days the betta has been mostly laying on the bottom in a corner.

When adding fish, I pour them and the water into the same kind of little box they use at the store when they are bagging them. I take out enough water to make it about half full, and hang that in the tank. I add a little bit of tank water every 15-20 minutes, at least 5 or 6 times. When the temperature matches, I net them out of the box into the tank.

[Makena95GT]

Next time you take the water ask them to give you exact readings of the parameters. We use test strips to test customer water and they are notoriously inaccurate. Invest in an API master test kit, they are aweeeesssooommmeee lol

The algae eaters, are they plecos, if so, what kind? If they are just "algae eaters" they will get over a foot long and start attacking your other fish. I suggest only one "algae eater" per tank.

Do you know how many gallons the tank is?

When you do the water changes are you rinsing the filter media in the old tank water or replacing it? Sounds like a water quality issue to me, due to possible overstocking. "Algae eaters" are poop machines, and high nitrates are no bueno for fish.

What water conditioners do you use? Sorry for all the questions but its all helping to solve the problem. Ben keeping fish for ten years in Texas, so I know the ropes arou d here

my old reef tank before the upgrade


Planted Nano shrimp tank



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[wodesorel]

Makena asked everything I was wondering about. S/he's right about the API kit, too.

[Kleinerhejhog]

Sorry, my first edition that went missing when I went to check something said, but I forgot to say when I started over. It's a 29 gallon tank.

The algae eaters are algae eaters, not plecos. I only ever had good luck with one pleco in the past, and never any with algae eaters, but the girl at the store told me they would clean better than plecos, and nothing about how big they might get.

I use Prime now, previously I had used a Top Fin one, and tried an API one, but fish dropped like crazy while I was using that so now it just sits in the cabinet.

I guess I need a tutorial on how to manage filter media, rinsing in old tank water is not something that has ever occured to me.

[Kleinerhejhog]

And there is clearly something wrong with my betta, but I can't get tapatalk to bring up this category to let me post a picture right now.

[Makena95GT]

So pretty much once weekly you need to change out 10-20% of your water, you can achieve this by doing as you are, gravel vacuuming. When you are doing your water change, remove old mechanical filter pad and rinse it out using that dirty fish water you just pulled from the tank. When you replace the pad, you are losing all of your beneficial bacteria. People are under the impression this bacteria lives in the water or gravel, very little of it does, but almost all of it lives on your filter pad. This is what converts ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate, so you don't want to lose it.

If you rinse the pad in tap water it'll kill the bacteria as well, which is why we like to just swish it around in the old tank water since its already treated. Just to get any solid manner off, were not trying to make that filter pad look new.

So unless the pad is falling apart, never actually change it out.

As for the carbon, as most will yell "but what about the carbon wont it go bad if i don't change it?" in a sense, yes. Carbon loses its ability to absorb smells and discolorations after about 30 days BUT, it IS NOT needed to maintain a healthy tank. Its used to clear up discolorations in the water (like when you add driftwood and the water turns a tea color from tannins) or to absorb smells to make the water smell less fishy (which I've never had a tank smell unless something is wrong) and also to absorb any medicine. I really only use carbon after i medicate a tank to help remove any traces of that medicine when I'm done medicating.


Or you can get an AquaClear filter which houses your biological filter media separately from the carbon and the pad itself, which means you can change the carbon and pad and keep the bacteria safe, same with a canister filter.

I'd say rehome both of those algae eats and work on tank maintenance for a few weeks to establish a good cycle before getting new fish. I'm betting the tank had never truely cycled.

Id also move the betta. Some get stressed in taller tanks like a 29. I had one that loved his 55 gallon and another that had to stay in a 10 gallon because he couldn't figure out how to get to the surface to breathe. Or try adding some decor that has flat areas close to the surface for him to lounge on so he can reach the surface to breathe easier. Bettas have labyrinth organs, so do gouramis, so they also breathe air. And love to lounge near the surface on leaves or decor :3

Hopefully I'm not confusing you. I'm pretty tired from a lot of stress over here and losing my favorite reef fish due to. Power outage -.-'

Let me know If I need to elaborate on anything. I'm working crazy hours so I may not be super timely though and i apologize for that in advance

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[Kleinerhejhog]

The betta seemed fine until two days ago. He'd be all over the tank, zooming around to eat with everyone else, and resting somewhere up against the rock pile or the fake coral thing, or nestled in the plant. I think he probably needs medication.

There isn't a pad in the filter, there's a block shaped sponge thing (which I guess is the pad equivalent), a bag with charcoal in it, and a bag with these cermic looking pellet things.

i guess I don't know what it means for the tank to 'never truly cycle'. Or what to do differently to make it do that. I am doing the water once a week, I can add rinsing the sponge block too.

But how do I rehome a fish. And who will eat the algae if I do.

So sorry to hear about your reef fish. it sucks when you do everything right and things go wrong anyway.

You're not confusing me (I don't think, anyway). I think I am just in the boat where I thought I knew what I was doing but clearly don't just like when starting out with my hermits. I'm sure all of the info I need is on the fish lore forum; I took a quick look at all the categories over there and kind of panicked, there's so much information, and I have spent most of the last month or so learning about hermits, and was just overwhwlmed. I really and truly appreciate yur help, and don't worry about being timely or not, I had a HORRIBLE week last week and this week is not off to a better start, I know how life is.

[wodesorel]

(Makena - I love you!! - So nice to see proper fish care advice. Sorry about the reef fish, that is awful.)

You have the good kind of filter then, because the pads will just fall apart over time. Think of that block as the heart of the aquarium, and treat it kindly. I still have my original foam block from 2004, through a move and a week without power during a hurricane where I nursed it so it wouldn't die. It's a pet in and of itself because of the bacterial colonies on it, and just like a sour dough starter it'll jump start any new tanks once it's old enough. Keeping it rinsed will keep the holes from plugging up with fish waste, which smothers the bacteria when fresh water and oxygen can't get through. The carbon can be changed, but if it's been in use for a while then it has it's own bacterial colonies and really should be kept until the tank is perfectly stable and you haven't been adding new fish in several months, since remove it can cause a small swing in the water chemistry. The ceramic things are another place that bacteria grows and should never be changed.

If you're having the water tested, what have they told you of the results? Ammonia has to be 0 ppm, Nitrite 0 ppm, and Nitrates will range between like 5 ppm and 80 ppm, with under 20 being safe for most fish. That's what the water changes are thinning out and keeping low, so if it's too high just up the water changes to twice a week. Both ammonia and nitrite are toxic at any amount and if they are present then it means your tank is still "cycling", which means that the bacterial colonies are still trying to build up to where they can eat all the waste that is being produced the moment it is produced. There's two stages to the bacterial growth - the first eats fish pee (ammonia) and creates nitrites as waste. The second kind eats that bacterial waste and creates nitrates as its own waste. The nitrates aren't as toxic to aquatic life, but it can be if the levels get too high or you have a sensitive species in the tank. If there is ammonia and nitrite in the tank, then daily water changes are a must until the bacteria grows enough to handle the load, or else the fish will be poisoned.

I actually had the same trouble with dying fish in the beginning until I switched to Prime. I'm not sure why it's magic, but it really does seem to work better. The Prime will neutralize a lot of bad stuff and get you started with perfect water, which may be why. It can also help to correct for a cycling tank as it binds ammonia and nitrite into less toxic substances for the bacteria to eat without it harming the fish

Don't medicate until you know what's wrong - almost all health problems in fish comes down to water quality, temperature, and tank arrangement. Fix that and the fish get better on their own. Fish medications are toxic in their own right and can be a cause of death. One should never guess on meds.

Does the algae eater look like this?

If so, you really do want to rehome it or return it. They only eat algae when babies, and then they go after the rest of the fish in the tank. They can reach 11 inches in length when adults as well. You'll find there's worse misinformation and flat out scamming in fish than there is with hermits!

Algae is best controlled manually even though it is a pain. Invest in a glass scraper and do it with every water change. If you wanted something alive to help then you have to factor in that the animal is going to be an eating machine and screw with the water chemistry even more. You've heard of the inch per gallon guide? Well, a mystery snail would need like 5 gallons to itself! There are otocinclus catfish that eat algae, but they're all collected from the wild and they have a massive rate of death in captivity, along with being a schooling fish so they should be kept in groups of at least 6 to 10. There's really no good answers. Live plants will suck up the nitrates that lead to algae growth, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Also, orange is diatom growth. Common in new aquariums and will usually go away on it's own once the water is good.

The black skirts might be going after the betta, they can be territorial. They are also a schooling fish and should never be kept in numbers less than 6 or they don't act right. Neons are the same way, 6 or more for best results. That would fill your tank right there with the platys. You can't fit a lot of fish in a tank. The ones they have on display at the pet store are insanely overstocked and I know it's tempting to have the same thing at home but it's not possible long term.

For right now, don't bring any more fish home until you know for sure that the tank is stable. I think what happened is that the tank may still be cycling and then by adding too many fish too quickly it caused a giant swing in water chemistry. That can take weeks or months to settle down again and trying to rush things will put you back at square one. :/

[Makena95GT]

Haha people around PetSmart call me the fish nerd or fish lady and I get people from all over town to come see me since I k ow more than most chain store employees regarding animal care

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[fantasybookworm]

Well, if I end up with fish at some point, I know who to go to...Makena & Wode, you guys are awesome!! If I may, I might PM one of you once I'm settled in my new place as I'd like to get a betta fish again, but have the tank set up right this time. I tried to fix the water chemistry too late last time & lost my little guy.

Kleiner, good luck with getting your tank set! It sounds so complicated to me, but as with any animal, I suppose there's just a learning curve & you get used to all of the chemistry talk.

[wodesorel]

The biggest thing is the filter and the bacteria that grow in it. People think of fish tank filters like their Brita water filter - that it makes the water pure by itself and needs changing often so that it keeps doing it job. It's nothing like that. A fish filter is just a machine to move water over a place where bacteria can grow, and it's those bacteria that do all the work. And time - it takes a LOT of time for those bacteria to grow to levels where they help. Until that point, the fish are sitting in water filled with their own pee and poop, and that is toxic at any level since they're having to breathe that. It takes at least a month, sometimes several before there is enough bacteria to handle the waste as its happening. You can't rush it unless you get filter media with bacteria already on it from somewhere else, and adding a lot of animals in at once overloads the systems. There is enough bacteria when it's done to cover only what is living in the tank in that moment. Add more living things and more bacteria has to grow to cover the extra load, which takes time. (Or if you want to think of it in reverse, the bacteria can only grow to the point where there is enough food to go around since if there's more of them then there is a constant food source, some will starve.)

It's called a cycle since it is the nitrogen cycle - same thing happens in a pond, but it also happens with dirt. An animal makes waste (ammonia), bacteria break that down into nitrite, and then another bacteria break it down into nitrate which plants use to grow and then animals eat the plants and create waste again. Ideally this is what we want to happen by not changing the substrate in our crabitats constantly - bacteria that break down waste and make it more harmless to make less work for us and a healthier home for them.

And I forgot to mention it, but I do agree with Makena on not messing with your pH or hardness. It is too hard to maintain and it's prone to random failure. (Yes, water CAN change it's pH randomly and without warning after water changes. It has to do with the dissolved gases in the water.) There are many species of fish that are very adaptable for a range of pH and hardness. The key is to buy fish that work for what you have, rather than make what you have work for the fish you want. I have the same water parameters, and yeah, it is limiting but it doesn't have to be boring. The hardest part is walking into Petsmart and them having rows of fish that prefer soft water. My local shop actually tailors her stock to the local water to make it easier on people.