2 rescued Leopard Geckos - update 12/2 - & their Baby!!!

[me n my hermikids]

Why are their tails so fat? It must serve them some purpose in nature. Just curious.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[wodesorel]

Why are their tails so fat? It must serve them some purpose in nature. Just curious.

Fat stores! They live in the desert and it can be a long time between meals. The tails lets them store extra nutrients and fat to get through tough times. (It also allows them to survive months of abuse without much permanent damage.) Since around a third of their weight is in the tail, it can be dropped or broken off if a predator comes after them, which confuses the predator and makes them lighter and faster when running away. It grows back, but it never looks the same.

[me n my hermikids]

Wow, what amazing little creatures! Thank you, Wodesorel.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Crabinski]

The little one is so sweet! Do the geckos do any parenting or are you the de facto parent? I mean, if the baby hatched in the wild, would it be on it's own immediately or would it stay with the parents for any length of time?

[wodesorel]

They do no parenting. They're actually pretty likely to eat little ones... The babies if hatched together will also often try to eat each other and will maim feet and tails in the process. It's a little gruesome. Eggs are laid in pairs every 20 days or so, so it keeps it from being too dangerous unless humans are breeding multiple females and incubating eggs together.

She'll be raised by herself and when she's an adult - providing the temperatures stayed correct while she was developing she will be female - I'll house her with her mom since adult females are usually fine together.

[Kaleoscope]

I just read all the way through this post and I'm amazed at their transformations! I cannot believe their original owners kept them like that, goodness. Belle looks so much better and both of them are such beauts, I love Butler's coloration.

Have you considered tong feeding? You mentioned how long it took to drop in supers and I wondered if you had heard of it. I switched to some tongs for my leo about a month ago and she loves it. She wasn't so big on mealworms before it since they never seemed to want to move but will take them fine enough now in small batches since she's learned tongs=food. I feed crickets as a staple since she has been picky about everything else for the 5yrs I've had her, but I'm looking to see if she'll switch to dubias for me soon now that we're not in Florida and I can keep them legally. It has definitely helped me keep the tank cleaner, lol.

Their baby looks beautiful! I'm exited to see how their coloring turns out. ;A; So tiny, my goodness.
About your plan to house them with their mom should they turn out to be female, all of my research has said that's not a good idea? Females can reportedly fight just as violently as males though they may be more tolerant for longer periods of time, but I've had multiple people warn me against it who've had bad scraps between members of a cohabbed setup. I couldn't tell you anything from personal experience since my girl is kept alone in her gecko 'mansion', aha, but I've helped some people with terarrium and housing conditions where they've cohabbed females and very apparent (to me) food bullying was taking place. It looks like you've done your research and I'm really interested in what looks to be the sand/tile substrate setup you have, I'd just hate for your scalechilren to end up in a messy and expensive fight.

[wodesorel]

It's sort of modified tong feeding. If I drop it in front of them they eat. They had been eating so much though that doing 6 or 8 a day, times three geckos, took a while. Now that they're all up to weight they've cut back majorly. Maybe 3 worms each, every other day, if that. I had read that it was hard to overfeed them, and that seems to be the case. They are ignoring food for the first time. (Of course, now the Cham is demanding to be hand fed. :roll: )

Butler will only eat supers. The fat tailed only eats crickets. Belle thankfully eats anything! With the chameleon now it's not such a problem since I need to have a lot on hand anyways.

It might or might not work out keeping them together. It really depends on the geckos, and you have to watch closely to make sure both are eating. I don't free-feed so that'll be easy. I've known several people who do females in pairs and trios, and know a few breeders as well who house their females together for ease of breeding. Her mom is a lump 99% of the time and is incredibly laid back. I'll put them in a 30 breeder with two of everything, including UTHs, so with luck it'll work. If not, I'll split them. It's not set in stone, but it would be nice for them to share.

I read up a lot on the substrate issue, and I respect the research that was done into natural (bioactive) substrates. The vast majority of impactions happen in animals that have improper husbandry - temperature, dehydration, supplementation, diet, etc. It's a side effect rather than a main cause when using things other than calcium sand. I waited until both were healthy and about up to weight before adding in loose substrate at one end. I feed on the tile, and they use the loose as their bathroom spot. They had been kept with bark substrate at their first home so Butler especially wants to dig a lot and many mornings I come in to find it spread all over the tank. I'm not sure I'll ever work up the courage to go full natural substrate for the leos since it needs to be dry, but this is working well for them. (My AFT is up to 6 inches of moist sand & cocofiber now and goes on digging sprees!)

The baby is and will be on paper towel roll until an adult. Not going to take chances.

[Kaleoscope]

That's great hhh. What a little stinker, aha. Do you have any good resources for Chameleons? I have two(!) people I know getting a Chameleon each and I've volunteered to partner w/them to help them learn about husbandry and such (read as-trying to get in on the ground level and hopefully prevent deadly conditions). I've got good resources for feeders and plan on sharing/selling my dubias when/if I get them (can they even have dubias? I think yes) but what I feel is reliable housing information has been a bit more difficult to come by. I'd personally recommend something more forgiving/has more information since they're first time herp owners but you can't beat them, so join them I guess.

Reptiles can be such picky eaters lol. I hope it works out for you! I'm definitely on the 'better somewhat obsessively safe than sorry' side of things, I might feel more comfortable if I had other serious herpers around to learn from/draw advice from aha. My girl is pretty adventurous, but loves riding along on my shoulder when I walk around the house for a bit.

Ah, don't worry-I wasn't bashing your sub choice! I know you're a very well-researched and experienced critter mom. Mostly I was wondering what your take and resources were on the subject, since my girl loves to dig. I've considered putting in a sand pit for her like some people have in their beardie's tanks, but I lost my first geck to bad husbandry and impaction (misinformation station) so I'm a little sand-shy. She's on carpet and tile atm in a 40gal breeder I believe, which seems to be the max recommended size for leos. Bioactive is something I'm definitely very interested in doing for her eventually since it seems a lot more sanitary and I'm really big on going 'natural' with my critters, but it looks like a long-ish process and doing up a 40gal breeder would be quite the adventure. If I did go bioactive I'd probably downsize her enclosure for sure, I have seen some really cool builds tho, and I also want to experiment some with UVB lighting. :3

I figured you would be, glad to hear it.

[wodesorel]

Yes! I want to get her UVB as well. I know it's not recommended here in the US, but it's gaining traction in Europe where there aren't as many big breeders guiding the direction of care. There's been a couple dozen studies showing they do utilize it even though they are mostly nocturnal.

http://www.chameleonforums.com/ - they are AMAZING over there. Very personable, very knowledgeable, and very much not afraid to tell it like it is. They advocate for lots of space, varied diet, etc. It seems to be the premier location for new research. Lots of veterinarians on the forum as well, which is surprising! I've been reading everything posted since mine came home and I'm learning a lot. I went from scared to death to feeling a little confident that I'm doing okay by her. She was a rescue from the same woman the leos came from. Needless to say, not healthy at all. MBD, half the weight she should be, and dehydrated. We're working on getting her back to okay. I'm very thankful she's friendly and tamed, as some of them can be downright nasty as adults!

Do you know what species they are getting? Some aren't bad if you follow care advice to the letter. I'm glad mine is a veiled as they are the easiest - from Yemen and require lower humidity and less fussing. The Madagascar species look to be a total headache and a major money pit, both in equipment and because of how long they live. Around five to seven years is average for a veiled, but for some of the Madagascars a few years is considered good. There's still a lot they don't know, but it's better than it was 10 years ago.

[Kaleoscope]

I like to take her outside with me for short periods of time when its nice out for her to get some natural sunlight. Indeed! It does seem like they can go without it, but I don't think there's much harm to be had in providing them with something they'd encounter and utilize in their natural habitat anyway! Some people have reported their gecks basking before heading to bed for the day, and others seem to get a huge health boost.

Thank you so much! I'll definetly direct them over there and stalk the forums myself. I was just treated to a joint turtle and hermit crab horror stories during my art class today, am not interested in hearing dual scale children ones every other Friday.

I'm not sure they even know, aha. I think one is heavily consideirng a panther, perhaps both of them. They keep saying they 'don't like the ones with the horns' and a whole bunch of somewhat vauge descriptions of their preferences but I'm pretty sure it'll be either veiled or panther. One of them doesn't seem to get that an animal's temperament isn't going to be really predictable until they'll settled in, they keep saying they want to get the 'tamed ones' online from a breeder that are 'already used to humans' and 'nicer'. I'm worried they're expecting something tolerant and easygoing, which it seems chams can be very much not.

Much like hermit crabs, aha. I'm really happy that there's so much new information about exotic pet keeping and that we are able to care for them all so much better instead of dooming them out of sheer ignorance. There's a lot we don't know, but there's also a fair bit we do know and are learning and its pretty exciting.

[wodesorel]

If they buy from a good breeder - the Cham Forum has sponsors that check out - instead of a reseller like a pet store or LLL or Backwater Reptiles, they actually should be getting a very healthy cham that is familiar with humans and tolerant of interaction to a point. They are never cuddly, and males can be extremely territorial. Females get egg bound and die easily, so they aren't the best of choices either. I'm actually getting used to being hissed and puffed at all the time as she's starting to feel better. Since she's already managed to lay twice in horrible conditions I'm not very worried about when it comes time for her to have eggs again. (Which I think she might be getting ready to do.)

Do they realize how much they are looking at spending though? And how much space they actually need? They'll be looking at around $300 plus shipping for a healthy panther, plus a cage that needs to be 2 feet by 2 feet by 4 feet tall when it's an adult. If they aren't building their own (which is cheap) that's another $100-$400 for a bare cage depending on how fancy they want. Another $150 for a misting system since otherwise the cham will dehydrate to death, unless they plan to be home during all daylight hours to spray every few hours. (Veileds can get by with less since they're from a more arid environment, but it still has to be several times a day. I'm homebound during the day while hubby is working, so it hasn't been an issue.) And then there's also the cost of branches, climbers and live plants because a cham ain't happy unless the cage looks stuffed. (Although stuff from outside can be used for free.) And UVB replaced every 6 months because you can't take the chance the bulbs will stay good for an entire year since MBD hits them so hard. (Amazon has great prices.) Oh, and you can't just feed one thing, they basically have to have as much variety in their diet as possible or their health goes downhill from lack of nutrients. I've had to resort to ordering online and starting my own cultures (which I'm hoping to sell part of occasionally to offset the cost) since my local stores carry only two things they can eat. (Although honestly, since they take the place of crickets, it's only a few dollars more to order specialty if I have to.) Vet costs, too of course. (I have a great vet at the clinic who is very generous since he knows we're taking in rescues and what he charges is nothing compared to what I would be paying at a normal vet's office.) Care for exotics runs into the hundreds usually, and at some point they will need it. Fecals are a must, emergencies will happen, etc. And it runs as much as, if not more than, care for a dog or cat.

[wodesorel]

Before and afters. I think I may have gone a little too far with Bell. Diet time.

Belle




Butler

[Kaleoscope]

I think one of them kept talking about LLL because a friend bought their gecko from it and recommended it and I was like 'UM'. This is the same person who wants a screen tank and just, hon you have never kept anything more than a dog do not do not do not. I'm really hoping they're not planning on handling them a lot but I fear they are expecting to be able to interact a decent bit. I'm getting the sense they're wanting them b.c 'oh cool pet those look neat' and just kinda assume they can handle it? I'm hoping I can talk at least one of them down, one seems more receptive than the other to my input but worse to worse I can bring it up with their parents. Did I mention they're early-teens?

Yeah. This is a great idea.

I really, really don't think they do. Would you mind if I copy-pasted some of our conversation into some emails I'm putting together with resources? I'm very, very worried that they're perhaps expecting something more, do-able. I'll be keeping myself available as much as I can for aid and as an option to rehome if they can't handle it, but I'm really hoping to kinda shock them into realizing that this is a pet for an experienced caretaker for a reason. A really, really good list of reasons. A laundry list of reasons. They should not get this pet. Don't.


Belle put on quite the grams! A diet may be in order yes aha, but her coloration's gotten so much better and she looks amazing.
Butler's such a handsome geck, goodness. I love his little white toes aa. How did their personalities fare? I know you said Belle was a chill lump but I don't think you've said much about Butler. ouo

[wodesorel]

The chams do need a screened cage - and regular misting. It can be a serious mess! They cannot be housed in a completely solid walled tank or they develop respiratory and bacterial infections from the stagnant air. When I say fussy, I mean it. The tank needs to be able dry out between mistings, but they can't be in too much of a draft. Some owners will seal up one or two sides with a shower curtain if the humidity drops too low. Several have complained of water staining and mold growth on the walls and carpeting. And yes, you're welcome to quote things.

There is a thirteen year old right now on the cham forums that is driving everyone insane. I just feel bad for the chameleon he has. His parents bought it for him, but then won't do anything else, like get it the right sized enclosure or take it to a vet. I hope the parents of the two you know have some clue about what's going on, since they're the ones who are going to be paying for it when something goes wrong.


Honestly, I haven't been handling or interacting with Butler much because the idea was to get him into a home from the very start. Promised my husband we'd only keep one, or maybe even find homes for both. I just wanted to save them from the situation they were in, and at the time my critter room was full up. We already had the one gecko and I wasn't really keen on having three.

Brought Butler up to the shelter today to meet the people (vet tech!) who were interested and it was a complete disaster. I don't know if it was telephone through my husband, but "have been wanting one for a while now" somehow became "never read the caresheet that was brought home and what do I do with it? Let it roam the living room?" What do you mean it can live 17 years?? And it only eats live?!"
They knew nothing. NOTHING. "Heat lamp? They need humidity, right?" And I spent an hour writing out a care sheet with specific information about him in particular so anyone interested could find out first if they were up to it.

And then Butler just stared at me the whole time. I mean the whole. freaking. time. Wouldn't even look at anyone else. Didn't want touched by anyone else. I thought reptiles weren't supposed to bond! Ugh.... I have no idea what to do now. Hubby ended up holding him for a while, too. (And Butler was cool with that because he recognized him.) So now he's not sure what to do either!

[megmaholm]

Wode, I don't know if you play the Fallout games but in case of a nuclear war I'm holding you personally responsible for causing the emergence of radscorps and deathclaws and mirelurks.

That is a seriously cute baby gecko. I showed it to my husband, said "Can I-" and he immediately said "NO."