What are you reading? I'm really bummed.

[kitty_LHC]

Nope. But I'll look them up.Nancy Springer. They are written for teens I think.

[KittyCaller]

hehe, Mort is my brother's favorite. Death is one of my favorite characters, so I rather liked it as well. I tend to read a few and then read something else, and then read a few more, so I'm currently reading Hogfather. Very funny.

[GSnicklegrove]

You're a book hopper, I tend to do that too.

[Guest]

Has anybody read Slaughterhouse- 5 by Kurt Vonnegut? (No spoilers, please ) It may pop up on my A.P. exam this year, and I think I will read it pretty soon here...Just wondering if it's any good. (I like Vonnegut, so I'm not particularly worried!)

[TheGreyRonin]

I wasn't too impressed with Slaughterhouse-5, but then again, I prefer 'hard' science fiction.(Humorous fiction is another story....LOL)

[Jedediah]

Slaughterhouse 5 is reeeeaaaally weird, but I loved it.

[Guest]

You know, reading back thru this, I'm really surprised that a few certain authors haven't been mentioned. For example, Anne McCaffery. I *love* the Pern series, I think I've read all of them to date, and own several of them. The Talent series is pretty good too, especially the first 2 books, To Ride Pegasus and Flight of the Pegasus. Then there's Jean M. Auel, with her Earth's Children series, I just reread Valley of Horses. Auel does a terrific job of portraying what life may have been like during the last Ice Age. For those who like really serious Science Fiction, there's Robert L. Forward. He creates truly alien aliens, yet manages portray them realistically and allow readers to identify with them. Of his works, I'd recommend everything except possibly Timemaster (I think that's the title). Dragon's Egg and Starquake are truly excellent, and do a wonderful job of extrapolating what life on a neutron star might be like, from chemistry to cultural development. Forward is also a recognized physicist, inventor of the Forward Mass Detector, among other accomplishments. Last I heard, he worked for JPL (Jet Propulsion Laboratories).

[TheGreyRonin]

Okay, I've been trying to go easy on my sci-fi (Read It Or Die!) crusade, but since Kittish brought back Forward...(pun intentional) Anne McCaffrey is wonderful, especially her Pern series. Since nine-tenths of it reads more like medieval fantasy, it is a perfect series for fantasy buffs to try something a little different. Larry Niven alone is an excellent author; Add in his usual partner Jerry Pournelle, and you end up with some of THE most amazing worlds and moments in print. (Invading aliens that look like baby elephants using paper airplanes to hang-glide to Earth...and it's NOT funny when you read it.) For those of you with a gaming bent (like me; it's an addiction, and I dose myself twice a week to cope. *grins*), Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle, and an amazing man named Steven Barnes have created the Dream Park series. Think interactive Disneyland on steroids.... And for those who prefer a touch of reality in their escapism, Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child have managed to create an ongoing series that is fascinating, horrifying, and incredibly addictive. Starting with Relic, they weave a world where dark things lurk, and only Special Agent Pendergast stands between them and us.

[Guest]

quote:Larry Niven alone is an excellent author; Add in his usual partner Jerry Pournelle, and you end up with some of THE most amazing worlds and moments in print. (Invading aliens that look like baby elephants using paper airplanes to hang-glide to Earth...and it's NOT funny when you read it.) Don't forget the elevator shoes!! That's an important part. But my absolute favorite excerpt from any of his full novels is the "Hot Fudge Sundae Lecture". It is mordantly funny. Absolutely hilarious, but utterly horrifying in it's implications. And there's an error in the math. Get out your trusty scientific calculater and follow along with them. I do have a gripe with the Ringworld novels.***********SPOILER ALERT, you might want to skip the next bits if you haven't read the novels.************There is just NO WAY the Pak could have built the Ringworld. It would have taken the cooperation of the entire species, and the Pak just don't work together that well. For one thing, none of the Protectors would have allowed their secrets to be shared, such as making scrith, or how to cause the sun to lase. And as soon as any Protector group saw an advantage for their bloodline in breaking the alliance, it would have been all over. I'll concede they might have FOUND the Ringworld and settled it, but they could never have built it. There's also the matter of the world maps, especially the maps of Earth and Kzin. If the Pak had EVER found Kzin, they would have wiped out the entire race of the Kzinti, they'd have been considered far too potentially dangerous to allow to survive. And Earth was only a rumor to the Pak, a passing reference in the Library regarding a failed colony. *****************End Spoiler****************

[TheGreyRonin]

quote: I do have a gripe with the Ringworld novels.***********SPOILER ALERT, you might want to skip the next bits if you haven't read the novels.************ [snip] I think I'm in love...LOL I've had endless discussions on exactly those points about the Pak. Of course, that always raises the question "If not the Pak, then WHO?" My theory is either a race that came before the Pak....or that the Ringworld is an artifact from intergalactic space that drifted here a long time ago. It would explain the incredible disparity of technology...but not the maps of Earth, etc. Rats, thought I had something. LOL

[Guest]

quote:I think I'm in love...LOLI've had endless discussions on exactly those points about the Pak. Of course, that always raises the question "If not the Pak, then WHO?" *blushes* I'm flattered. LOLOh, and another spoiler warning, for people who haven't read Niven's novels that follow the Known Space timeline. Though this doesn't really give away any plots, it may not make much sense to you. Probably whoever built the Zoo Planet (see Cat House- Dean Ing. I think it was also published in one of the Man-Kzin Wars novels). The technology is similar, and the methodology has the same sort of feel to it. I'd guess it could have been the Tnuctip, but they came way too early in Galactic history to have been the builders. Unless... I wonder if scrith blocks telepathic signals as well as being opaque to everything else? If so, a population of Tnuctip could have survived the Slavers. That would go a long way toward explaining the extensive use of stasis technology on the Zoo Planet, and artifacts like sunflowers on the Ringworld. Of course that raises even more questions. Like, where are the Tnuctip now? Of course, they could have moved clear out of this galaxy, and they'd have good reason to, but why leave behind such a convenient vehicle as the Ringworld? Maybe the Ringworld was an early project, a test run for a Dyson sphere? Maybe we ought to be taking REALLY close looks at the so-called red giant suns. I wonder how many of those are really Dyson spheres completely enclosing a much smaller star? Or will the Puppeteers get the surprise of the century when they reach the Magellanic Clouds, and find a thriving interstellar civilization millions of years old? Hmm... it's just barely possible the Outsiders could have built both artifacts, given their apparent level of technology, but that raises still more questions. The first one that comes to mind is "Why??" The Outsiders would seem to have absolutely no use for either a Ringworld, or at least not for one that reproduces terrestrial conditions so well, nor for the Zoo Planet. Hey, or maybe they would have a use for them! Protecting their markets? Trying to insure that some species survived the Core Explosion so they could continue to buy and sell information? Doesn't seem likely, but then, nothing about the Outsiders seems likely. I wonder if there's a Trinoc enclosure on the Zoo Planet, or a map of the Trinoc home planet on Ringworld? It's really too bad that Louis and Chmee didn't have a chance check out all the world maps, or find some way to copy or bring back the map they found in that city.

[TheGreyRonin]

*****************MORE SPOILER JUNK************************************************************Oh, I'd come to the conclusion that the Zoo World was a prototype of the Ringworld quite a while ago. Near-identical technologies, etc. I don't feel the Tnuctip had a hand in either, though. Granted, it's well within their capabilities, but from what I gather of the Tnuctip (See Hey Diddle Diddle-also Man-Kzin Wars, vol. III as I recall) they aren't exactly pacifists. By now they'd have been noticed, and most likely be as bad or worse a plague as the Thrintun. The Puppeteers getting surprised? Best bet. I'd say if not a civilization existing in the Magellanic Clouds, then one long extinct. Here's an odd thought: The Jotoki used to be the masters of the Kzinti. From various sources including the Man-Kzin Wars, Jotoki have proven themselves very intelligent indeed, if a bit arrogant and naive. Many Known Space cultures had near-extinction events; perhaps in the far past the Jotoki were much more advanced, had a crisis, and ended up rebuilding MUCH later, having nearly wiped themselves out. They stumble across the Kzin....and the rest is history. Meanwhile Zoo World and Ringworld are no longer even remembered, a lonely Pak investigates... As for the Outsiders, that implies an incredible amount of foresight and power. By description the Outsiders use their clients because it is easier to trade information to a race in exchange for the building of way stations and such than to do so by force or on their own. This implies an almost laziness on the part of the Outsiders: "Oh, here's the plans for a hyperdrive, I'm too tired to bother building a feeding unit..*yawn*) If they had the focus and drive to build the Ringworld and stock it with potential clients, it would be far easier and make more sense for them to cut the middleman.I'm assuming, of course, that you've read the three sequels to Ringworld: The Ringworld Engineers, The Ringworld Throne, and Ringworld's Children. Some theories as to who created the Ringworld are covered, at least by implication. Whoever built the Ringworld seems to have had an affection for hominids. There are Kzinti and Pak breeders in abundance, but no Outsiders or Puppeteers. (So far...) Some odd thoughts on the Core Explosion: Reference is made of Starseeds, seemingly stupid lifeforms that breed at the Core and return to the rim. First, what if they are merely the breeder stage of a much more advanced race, much like the Pak Breeders? They could conceivably be the builders of Ringworld, perhaps as a preservative gesture for other lifeforms...which brings me to the second point: What if Starseeds CAUSED the Core Explosion? Postulate that the adult Starseed needs certain energy wavelengths and elements that only a Core explosion can provide. So every trillion billion years, they cause a buildup of energies in the Core, and the resulting shockwave carries the essentials to them. (Side thought: What if their breeding also served as a monitoring setup for the Core, pending the big boom?) Adult Starseeds could feel compassion towards these fledgling races, and have decided to give them a chance this time around in the Ringworld. Perhaps one day, if they survive, these hominids will be equal to the Starseeds... I'm feeling this sudden urge to go play in Larry's playground. *sighs* It's all too easy for me to be distracted from my own, I'm afraid.

[Guest]

*****Yet MORE spoiler material..... What, you're not all rushing to your nearest bookstore to buy everything by Larry Niven that you can lay hands on yet??? Whyever not?*****I don't know that I'd call the Zoo World a prototype exactly. Maybe a prior construction project, but not really a prototype. And we don't KNOW that there aren't world maps of the ancient puppeteer home world on either the zoo planet OR the Ringworld. If the Hindmost saw such a map in the map room, would he mention it to Louis or Chmee? I think not. And we only ever got a good look at two of the enclosures on the zoo planet, so we don't really know that all of the enclosures are set up for terrestrial type creatures. If the Tnuctipun went extinct sometime between building the Ringworld and/or the Zoo Planet and "modern" Known Space, it would answer nicely the question of where they were. If they found out about the Core Explosion not long after it started, perhaps they've already left the galaxy. We've only ever found ONE living representative of their race in a stasis unit, and assorted bits of technology scattered about.I don't buy the Jotoki being the builders of either artifact. If they'd suffered some near extinction, then remnants of the technology would still be littered about, and the Kzinti would be MUCH further advanced than they currently are. They'd have had stasis units at least centuries ago, and that would have been a very bad thing for the Man-Kzin wars, with or without hyperdrive. I'll accept a lonely, childless Pak protector stumbling across the Ringworld, and populating it with breeders. Perhaps even a whole crew of childless protectors, taking entire bloodlines after wiping out the protectors guarding them. But then what killed off the protectors and allowed such rampant mutation among the breeder populations? Especially with a secure supply of tree of life, and none of the trace element problems the colonization ship had on Earth? I mean, we're looking at a minimum of half a million years of uninterrupted development on the Ringworld to produce the hundreds, if not thousands of discrete hominid species you find there. I do agree that the Outsiders are not likely to have been the builders, they were just tossed in there to cover all the known bases. As I said, the primary question you have to answer in considering the Outsiders as builders is "Why?" Of course I've read all the Ringworld novels. I almost didn't after Ringworld Engineers, I was so disgusted at Niven for trying to take such an easy way out of answering the question of who built the Ringworld and apparently expecting his readers to blithely accept the Pak, when, with even a little thought it becomes so OBVIOUS that they could never have built it. I do rather agree, however, that if there are going to be protectors on the Ringworld, they ought to be Ghouls. That's really the only species that can legitimately claim to have the welfare of the entire Ringworld in mind. Starseeds. The Outsiders are known to follow Starseeds on their migrations to and from the Core. And no one knows why. Got a spare trillion stars lying around so we can flag down an Outsider ship and ask them? If they ARE the immature form of some other species, how bizarre must the adult form be? Evolved to live in free space? I don't think they had any part of the Core explosion, tho, it's fairly evident that it was a natural occurance, caused by the close proximity of stars to each other in the Core. Perhaps they have been MONITORING the Core, however, waiting for the explosion that was bound to happen eventually, perhaps preparing to ride the shockwave to neighboring galaxies. Perhaps they didn't evolve in this galaxy, but colonized this galaxy in much the same manner? Oh. What if a galactic core explosion TRIGGERED the change from immature Starseed to the adult form? That would seem to suggest that the adult form lives in intergalactic space, since they'd likely be carried there by the shockwave of the explosion. That would also suggest a hellishly long lifespan of individuals, especially those that did reach adult form. I'd bet they do all their breeding in the immature stage tho, and perhaps carry fertilized spores as adults, to seed any new galaxies they reach. Would adult Starseeds even NOTICE the planet bound races? Do they have anything even vaguely corresponding to what we think of as compassion, or even any other emotion? I'm currently having fun reading Rainbow Mars, fantasy that reads like science fiction. Svetz is such an endearing character.

[TheGreyRonin]

******Possible Spoiler stuff(And this is why fen are chased OFF message boards! *grins*)****** I see Zoo World as a prototype simply because even with the technologies used, it would still be a high-maintenence system. Since it was never fully finished, and Ringworld was, my thought is that a better design came along and was followed. *shrugs* Just a theory, and not one I cling to. Agreed on the Tnuctipun. Assuming the one found WAS typical of the entire race in personality and intelligence, only the Core Explosion (Or something I do NOT even want to imagine!) would force them to leave the galaxy. I was daydreaming as far as the Jotoki are concerned. With their biological setup, it's just too easy to picture them suffering some kind of environmental disaster and having difficulties reaching a sentient stage. I don't think the Hindmost would have told Louis or Chmee about a Puppeteer Map. I DO think he'd be likely to do something with one, though; form a new herd, or at least investigate. One could safely assume that any Puppeteers encountered on Ringworld would either have been wiped out, or would be visible merely by word of mouth. ("Across this sea lies terrible demons that run away, behind walls no Plains Runner can get through...") Side thought: Ghouls would know, one way or another, barring Puppeteer tinkering with them. And any Puppeteers that had that kind of power on Ringworld would be obvious as well. The Pak have the perfect motivation for building the Ringworld and colonizing it, but I agree they could never have built it, not with their social structure. What could have killed off the Pak Protectors on Ringworld? A mutated plague, possibly, that only affected the Protector stage? Anything else would either be too subtle or too obvious. If there was another race that could wipe out Protectors from Ringworld, it's pretty unlikely the Breeders would have survived. Contrariwise, the Protector(s) wouldn't have died from simple old age without having a backup plan that would create a new Protector to replace it. quote: Got a spare trillion stars lying around so we can flag down an Outsider ship and ask them? *grins* You'd be surprised....but no. And everyone ASSUMES the Core Explosion is a natural occurrence. As for the adult Starseeds (if any), I was thinking that an incredibly long-lived race might possibly become philanthropic about such things. Boredom sets in around the first thousand millenia, so they decided to preserve "interesting" cultures, etc. Still it's all conjecture, based on the fact that if the Pak didn't build it, someone DID. My paranoia and love of puzzles makes me look towards the known races first, if only to eliminate them as suspects. LOL Sudden loopy thought; what if the Grogs built the Ringworld? "Once we had hands...." I need to stop posting when I'm only half-awake...*chuckles* Currently reading nothing. I've been trying to focus more on my own writing as of late. I haven't read Rainbow Mars yet; science fiction is rather hard to come by here.

[Guest]

***********Looks nervously around for torch-waving, pitchfork bearing mobs... Do I need to say more spoiler material?**********quote:*grins* You'd be surprised....but no. And everyone ASSUMES the Core Explosion is a natural occurrence. Well, but don't forget that Beowulf Schaffer WENT to the core, and got close enough to see the early stages of the explosion. Given the conditions in the Core, it's reasonable to assume natural causes, and given the logic of it, why go looking for ghosts in the machinery? Ok, granted, it's POSSIBLE that some outside agency kicked off the chain reaction. It makes MORE sense, even for entities that would benefit from such a disaster to simply wait for it to happen on its own. Path of least resistance, and for any sort of being that would benefit from such a massive chain of novae, we're still talking about millions or billions of years between occurences. I'd think anything with a lifespan measured in even mere hundreds of thousands of years would learn patience. Grogs.. LOLOL, that's actually scary-funny. But no, there's evidence that when the Grogs had hands they didn't have anything like the level of sentience they have now. And Grogs didn't get off their home planet til humans came along. There's pretty good evidence to back that up, too. Consider how well Grogs and their food animals are adapted to the planet we found them on. I'd agree that Hindmost would NOT have mentioned a Puppeteer Map if he'd seen one on Ringworld. I have to disagree tho, about the weird monsters across the sea being rumor or legends tho, you're forgetting how BIG the Ringworld is. Look away for a second and you'd never find the spot again. We're talking about GENERATIONS of travel just to get from one ringwall to the other!!! And Hindmost, Louis and Chmee only ever explored a tiny tiny bit of the Ringworld firsthand, and look at all the variety they found, and whole species that had never heard of others relatively nearby. Even the Ghouls wouldn't necesarily know about who or what lived on the world maps, after all, there's not much evidence of any sort of extended sea travel on Ringworld, and it would take that or sophisticated air travel to get to any of the world maps. And it's been a long time since sophisticated air travel was a real possibility on Ringworld, there just aren't enough flying machines that still work, and no one to repair the broken ones. And keep in mind that the world maps are clear across on the other side of the arch. If there was a Puppeteer map, Hindmost might have been inclined to investigate. But he'd never go alone, and he'd never tell potentially dangerous aliens (Louis and Chmee) about such a thing. Rock and a hard place. So he'd leave it be. And now that Human and Kzinti governments both know about the Ringworld, there's no chance of Hindmost coming back with a Puppeteer team to explore, they'd be spotted and all sorts of uncomfortable questions would be asked. There's also the consideration that even if there were human (or pre-human), Kzinti, Puppeteer and who knows what all other sorts of alien populations on their world maps, there's no way for those populations to DEVELOP a technological culture. No raw materials. Pick a spot. Dig down, and you'll find dirt, possibly some stone, then scrith. No iron, no copper, none of the raw materials needed to build on to advance beyond a stone age type culture. All the hominid species that Louis and Chmee encountered were either stone age themselves, or had old City Builder tech to work with, and even that was limited. So in one way, the Zoo Planet DOES have some advantages over the Ringworld. And I don't agree that it would be high maintenence system once finished. If the various populations had been released as apparently intended, and the storage caves sealed off, then you'd have to check in once every thousand years or so to monitor development among the inhabitants. The Ringworld has some pretty serious defects itsself, also. **distant chants of "The Ringworld is unstable, the Ringworld is unstable" echo** Maybe the Zoo Planet and the Ringworld are BOTH prototypes for some much more ambitious engineering project? *points to my earlier statements regarding Dyson Spheres*quote: What could have killed off the Pak Protectors on Ringworld? A mutated plague, possibly, that only affected the Protector stage? Why not some mutated plague that affected Protectors and breeders? Protectors it killed, because they were too inflexible to handle the changes, breeders it changed and started the process of differentiation into the species we see today? And, as far as I know, Protectors DON'T die from "simple old age". As long as they have a supply of tree of life, and the will to eat, they're effectively immortal unless they're killed by some other agency. Look at Phsspok. He was old even before he made the trip to earth, and he didn't have the advantage of super-luminal travel to shorten that trip, either, so the trip took him something along the lines of 20 or 30,000 years SUBJECTIVE time!!!! *boggles* So whatever killed the Protectors on the Ringworld must have been a fairly sudden event. And no more protectors were seen on the Ringworld until Teela Brown made more. You'd think, as intelligent as she was in the protector stage that SHE would have realized that Ghouls would make the best protectors, instead of using City Builders and vampires and precipitating a war. *chuckles* Rainbow Mars isn't really science fiction, it just reads like science fiction. It's closer to being fantasy. Sort of similar to the way that the Pern novels read like fantasy but are pretty solidly based in science fiction. But that's that big grey thing with the long nose...