Do Indos need saltwater?

[Guest]

There have been cases lately of indos dying and atleast my two that died have one thing in common. They both languished in my saltwater dish for a couple of weeks before their deaths. One even died in the bowl. Aren't indos the most landbound of hermit crabs, meaning they are found further inland than other hermies? Could it be that saltwater is actually dangerous for them. I have several more indos and I'm thinking of putting them in their own tank with just freshwater.

[NewCrabber]

I don't think the saltwater has anything to do with the deaths. Even though they live further inland, They still need salt in their diets. In the wild, they would get some of the salt from the foods they eat. If anything, I think it's possible they were languishing in the salt water perhaps in an attempt to use it as a healing agent or soother for whatever it was that was ailing them.

[Guest]

quote:Originally posted by NewCrabber:I don't think the saltwater has anything to do with the deaths. Even though they live further inland, They still need salt in their diets. In the wild, they would get some of the salt from the foods they eat. True, but couldn't the high concentrations of salt in saltwater be harmful to them? It is to many animals including humans.

[NewCrabber]

That's a good point, but I think no matter the species, they are able and know to regulate it. What salt are you using and are you following the directions for mixing?

[Guest]

I don't know...maybe the shock of so much salt is too much for some of them to handle. I'd imagine the saltiest water that they come in contact with in their natural habitat would be brackish water...a mixture of salt and fresh water with a much lower level of salinity. Maybe indos should have a less salty bowl of saltwater. I really don't know. There have been a rash of indos deaths and most of them are occuring around water bowls, both fresh and saltwater. Who knows, even the ones that died in freshwater couldn't regulate it enough to overcome from saltwater that is much saltier than they were used to in the natural state?

[NewCrabber]

I really don't know either, I'm sorry to say. These are the subjects that get a little frustrating because we don't know. But, as I was sitting here waiting for your reply, I wondered if perhaps, even if they were using the saltwater as a healing agent, if they actually did absorb too much salt. Also, this might be a good reason to make sure the fresh water is changed at least every other day if not daily. I use NSW in my tank and haven't had any problems with the four indos I have. They don't make regular trips to the salt water dish, but I do see them in it on occasion.

[kuplakrabs]

Same here NewCrabber. My indo's visit the SW basin on occassion, even sit in it for a while. I wonder if there is a "brand" of SW mix connection here. In the Jelly like indo thread, I was reading that people were using IO. Perhaps the indo's are less tolerant to the higher metal levels in IO?....Since we really don't have any scientific studies to prove or disprove specific theories, at this point it's anyone's guess.

[Aviate]

I am going to repost what I posted in ISO. I agree with NewCrabber 100%.We need to not jump the gun here. I am hesitant to jump on this theory. Let me explain.The indos are sitting IN the IO before they die. That indicates to me that they are craving it, not that its killing them.While it is possible that there is an issue with salt water and indos, I think it would be very hasty to assume they dont need salt water. It is possible they are not as much in need of it as other hermies, sure. But they are offered it, and they are choosing to drink and bathe in it. In my tank, I will offer them a small dish of it, and a larger dish of fresh water. I will not put them in a seperate tank without it or with it diluted. It is possible there is a connection here. I am just not ready to say so at this time. Some crabs may have pps, or other issues. Others may have infections. If we want to err on the side of caution, I dont think diluted ocean water can hurt. But I would not remove it altogether. You guys COULD be on to something, but perhaps theres no connection. But we cant draw any conclusions based on indo deaths "in or near" the salt water dish. The two could be unrelated, or related in a way we have not yet determined. Many of us have had all types of hermies streak in the salt water dish. This is NOT unique to indos. They can be attemptingto cure swelling or infections in this manner. There are other factors involved here. Indos could need a less humid environment, since theyre farther from the sea. They could require more organic, decaying plant matter in their diet. They could prefer not to have sand. They could need some more UVA/UVB rays. Who can tell? In this hobby, we are pioneers. I worry when a suggestion so large is made and others follow it without considering the fallibility of jumping to conclusions.I find that we hermie lovers are always trying to find some correlations as to whats causing crab deaths. Of course we want to find out what we can do for them! but we need concrete, or at least, probable proof of tie-ins before we change major parts of their care.Dont get me wrong: what makes this site great is that we all love our pets and want to find out the best care for them we possibly can. We talk about our ideas and make as many hypothesis as we can, collectively. However, we here at LHC, as members of one of the major hermie care sites, need to be careful to realize when an idea is an idea, and when it is proven. I think about the culpability we have as pioneers of hermie care. We cannot use faulty logic, and assume "if A happens, it must be because of B". I know some people who have had indos for years, and had salt water basins as well. We need to be careful here not to begin a theory based on a hedging guess.

[Guest]

From my reading, ALL coenobita need access to salt water in order to regulate their osmotic levels -- remember, these creatures all came from the sea and need sea water to breed.After the terrible recent death of my Indo, Emperor Norton, and seeing the condition of the two others that I have and their behavior, I wonder if it isn't that the last large shipment of them wasn't particularly brutalized in their shipment here in some way. Perhaps they were held up in customs in LA in the heat, or something like that.I'm keeping a particularly close eye on the two remaining Indos I have, but I'm really beginning to worry, now.

[kuplakrabs]

I agree that they must be "craving" it. I would think self-preservation would stop them from sitting in saltwater if it were going to be toxic to them. As long as fresh is supplied along with the saltwater to allow them to osmoregulate, they should not be dying from "saltwater overdose". I would not suggest withholding it from them either. As Aviate has pointed out, there are way too many variables that can be affecting the outcome of these indo's. The only way we could even begin to theorize would be to have a huge tank of indo's that were harvested from one beach, transported together, maintained in the same tank, with the same unvarying conditions in a controlled environment. Since it will probably be a really long time before that ever happens, it seems unlikely the crabs are poisoning themselves in the salt water. I'm thinking the same as Aviate, if their systems are failing, perhaps it is a last ditch effort to desperately properly osmoregulate. Either way, they are most likely so far past the point of recovering, that diluting the sw (once you notice them soaking) wouldn't help.This sure is an interesting thread with lots of food for thought though. And it is strange how we keep seeing all of these threads about indo's.

[Guest]

I posted this already in the ISO thread but I'll do it here too.According to an article I read on molting, all hermit crabs, even PP's need saltwater for molting. It helps them retain water, which they need after the old exo is shed to expand their new exo to grow.If the Indo's have fresh and saltwater I can't see how they would drink the saltwater if it was toxic. I have 3 Indos and my large one outright WALLOWED in the saltwater prior to molting. Face down soaking for a long period of time.

[Guest]

ALL coenobita need access to salt water at all times. Their life cycle is linked to the sea and to remove it from them is cruel and dangerous.To assume that salt water is killing the Indos in question is the equivalent of seeing some guy get hit by a car, landing in a filthy gutter, and then blaming the runoff water he's lying in for his dying. These animals are crabs. They are tied to the ocean. They cannot survive or breed without it.These Indos are sick because of something they've been exposed to, but it isn't salt water. It's something they were ill with when captured, or something they were exposed to in shipping, such as diesel fumes or chemicals. I posted something about this in the Jelly-Like Indo thread, and suggest that we think about this logically before we run off and do something half-****ed like remove salt water from an animal that depends on salt water to breathe!

[GSnicklegrove]

Even inland there are various levels of salt found in the water. Purely fresh filtered water is not available.lol Estuary waters, while not as salty as ocean water is still very salthy compared to the fresh water we serve in the crabitats. But, bottom line, one of things we do know for sure, from the studies of Greenway and Weiss is, that land hermit crabs can osmoregulate themselves. It also appears there may be varying levels of salinity preferred by some species over others (compare indos to straws), but they all still retain the capability of osmoregulation.Remember, too, by the time a crab is showing symptoms, they have already been sick for a long time, probably weeks or longer. As they are wild caught critters, they carry a range of parasites and bad bacteria as well, organisms that they could live in harmony with by keeping in check in their wild environments, but which can take over their little bodies when their natural defense capabilities become low, such as stress of capture, shipping, and captivity in general. During this time of system imbalance, the added risk of picking up additional bioload in cramped quarters with other stressed crabs hits through the roof.For most any exotic species, from bird to reptile, that is wildharvested, vets recommend a minimum of 3 months observation and isolation, sometimes 6, because it take a very long time for pathogenic organisms already living in the animals body to multiply enough in a weakened body to take over.I also want to say, there are so many things not proven in land hermit crab care, but so far, one of the areas we have the most scientific information is concerning osmoregulation principles. Gertie

[Katy]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned in this thread but, why all of a sudden is there panic of salt water being linked to Indo's dying just because they were found in the salt water dish??How many posts have we read where a member says their crab was found dead in the water dish? (this is including all types, e's pp's, ect.)We don't automatically assume that salt water killed them do we?How many posts have we read where pre molt crabs pretty much stay in the salt water dish before a molt? Maybe these Indo's are/were having a tough molt and were drawn to the water dish like so many other crabs we have.Maybe the indo's are drawn to the salt water dish b/c they are sick or dying. Maybe in the wild, crabs (all types) are drawn to the sea if they're sick, dying, or in pre-molt. That seems like perfectly logical thinking to me...

[Aviate]

Gertie, thank you for coming into this thread to reinstill the beliefs I have been trying to explain, though not as well worded as you! Katy- there are four threads on this, in which Hoddy suggested he was removing the full strength seawater from his indo tank and others had considered doing the same based on his recommendation. I began to rebut this, as I feel, as do many others, that tying salt water usage into indo death is a correlation we cannot and should not make.If you would like to see how this began, check in the iso forum under gel like indo, or the threads here in LHC about indos. As Ive said all along, it is great for us all to toss ideas around, but we must be very wary of not causing a wide spread panic over something just because we have a hunch, based on where a crab was found before it died. Waaaaay too many factors involved to blame anything in such a specific way.