HCA: Hermit Crab Association

Original post deleted by Bill on 12/21/04.

That is an awesome post Bill...Thank you so much for posting about this again. I have to agree with you about the effects of bathing. I personally believe that bathing on a regular basis & using Stress Coat will eventually become fatal. No, I don't have any proof of this but I do know how quickly crabs can become stressed and the effects of that can be deadly. I think what we all forget is that before us, crabs were quite capable of taking care of themselves, given the proper environment they can still do that...Meaning, they know better than us when they need "baths", when their shells need to be cleaned out, when their gills need to be moistened, and what level of salt/fresh water they need, I feel that all we have to do is provide the proper environment so they can do those "crabby" things when they need too. And yes, I'm giving the crabs a lot of credit because it's they who wear shells and have gills so who better than them to know when & how much of something they need. I feel like I'm rambling but it makes perfect sense to me that bathing on a regular basis could prove to be fatal and that adding stress coat just quickens the process. Once again if the appropriate environment, including substrate, food, water sources, humidity, temperature, etc are provided then the crabs are quite capable of meeting their own needs as if they were still in the wild. Okay, I promise, I'm through rambling now...

I appreciate much of the info on osmoregulation in the above post.However, as Gertie and I said on the old LHC:There are two seperate issues here1. Bathing2. Filtered water basins Please do not confuse the two. The tank described by Bill is "ideal". Its 40+ gallons, with the perfect setup. Many of us do not have 40 gallon tanks, which makes the filtered water dishes impractical at best.Also, to advocate not ever bathing- how does that affect newbies who are young and will not be able to provide a perfect humid environment? In the case of a youngster with two crabs in a 3.5 gallon KK, bi-monthly baths are not a terrible idea. I still believe in misting my crabs, which they appreciate, and which does not disturb their osmoregulation.I generally agree with bills views on bathing. It will disrupt the salt balance in their shells. Crabs in the right conditions can bathe themselves. If they are not in the right conditions, they may benefit from the occasional bath until such time as they are given the proper set up. What I want to address is this filtered pond idea. I know that these are commonly sold, and are a big newer item on the market. That doesnt make them the "right" item for most tanks. I for one do not want to correlate not bathing with the need to have a filtered water dish. Again, as I said on the old LHC, you can decide not to bathe your crabs. That does not necessarily mean you need a filtered basin. Provide a large water dish, large enough for your biggest crabs to bathe. You do not need to set up a noisy, inadequate smallworld filter. I do not feel that these filters are really adequate or really even recommended for this use. first off: Providing a three gallon basin INSIDE your tank can be deadly to micros who can drown.Second: unless you are going to cycle your tanks water, this set up is not going to work. this is going to be a breeding ground for bacteria. Small world filters are not meant to combat all bacteria, they do not "cycle" a tank. I am not a believer in "cycle" or any of the artificial bacteria supplements, and personally would not want to drink it, if given the choice. I have been a fish owner and tropical fish website admin for many years, and I can tell you that 90% of fish experts do not use "Cycle" and find it worthless. Remember, this is a DRINKING dish, not JUST A bathtub.So how do you go about changing out the dish? Hmm, I wouldnt want to be saddled with it. third: I believe that unless you have a 40 gallon + tank, this set up is not even doable. When I had my 10 gallon tank, I could barely fit my two water and one food dish. How will the crabs have room to walk and excersize with a huge water jug?Many peoples first encounter with these hermit crab websites is when theyre beginners, so I hesitate to tell newcomers that baths are all bad. New crabs come home dehydrated and the immediate thing they need IS to be bathed. So, for all the hermit crab enthusiasts that are oldtimers, I am in agreement about holding off on bathing. That is something most of us have already put into practice long ago. But I dont think we all need to run out and try to set up a filtered basin. You can use the repti-dishes that are sufficiently deep, easy to clean, and save yourself the hassle.

It's really the same old "abstinance vs. contraception" issue.What I really think is right, is that you shouldn't even have hermit crabs (or any animal) as a pet unles you can provide it the right environment to live in. I don't think it's fair to force a pet to live in a tiny cage - even 10g size - for its whole captive life. 55g tanks should be a minimum for any pet that you don't take for daily walks. Fresh natural food (not processed leftover animal parts meal), fresh water and substrate, large clean water bowls for bathing.I 100% agree with Bill. The problem is that I don't know how to properly preach it. If all we tell new crabbers is that they need to have a full-out setup, or they shouldn't have crabs at all, then they'll just ignore us, and find info that is more appealing. They'll take all the bad info about hermit crab care, and believe it, because it's easier to follow, regardless or how correct it is.So, given that people are going to "do it anyway", we need that kind of auxillary care, to make sure that the crabs are in as good of an environment as possible, given the lack of knowledge and proper supplies on the part of the owner. And hope that the owners will eventually find this site, and either put together the correct "home" for these little "lives", or give up their crabs to another member who can give them the home they deserve.So, that means I understand what Aviate is saying. We need to provide "mediocre" care along with "best" care, so that those who are unwilling to invest in best care at least won't make their crabs feel as good as possible.There's no way to properly word this post. No matter what, I come off sound like an arse. But the more I have pets, and see pets in pet stores and kiosks and as pets in homes, the more I think it's just wrong to make them spend their whole lives in tiny, inadequate homes.I kind of wish hermit crabs were expensive. Nobody (at least hopefully) spends 100$ on a vieled chamelean, and then dumps it in a tiny cage with no water. They research the proper care and make sure that their 100$ friend will live for a long time. But with crabs, 5$ a shot. Every month, you buy more to replace the ones that died. Keep them in a little container on your shelf. It's disgusting.

Jedi,I know Aviate and I agree with you completely. I have felt the same about all these issues for a few years. I stopped bathing before the Greenway article came out, and then you were the first one to post it, what a year ago? And that confirmed my bathing suspicions. At this time, alot of us have been thinking about how to best communicate these issues, and we are still working on it. Most veteran crabbers that I know do not bathe their crabs at all! The intention of the bathing is due to the fact so many kiddos and people come home with a half gallon kk, a sponge, a sea shell dish, 3 crabs, a packet of gravel, and a trial size of FMR with no way, no clue, no idea.Caresheets, like anything, at this point are always being updated. I know you helped HCA update as well, and I personally hand out your care sheet to people. I am glad that Bill is figuring out the bathing thing pertaining to his crabs, but honestly, there needs to be more discussion on alot of topics, and how to communicate to people.Tanks, I am in absolute agreement. The idea that a wild animal who has hundreds of miles for roaming space in the wild could be content in 1 foot of space is ludicrous. The idea that these animals do not need more exercise is ludicrous. It is all a gimmick, pet store, pet breeder, pet supplies manufacturers...it is a gimmick.Jurrassi Diet has proven and tested their ingredients with hermit crabs (aside from the E issue, they buy low quality food.) FMR with their lead and most likely E laden bone meal based food, and their "proven" knowledge about their products like half gallon pink kk's, tiny shell dishes, ridiculous care sheet, and their wonderful hermit crab "cages". This is even an issue for leopard geckos. When I moved my gecko Sandal up from a recommended ten gallon to 20 gallon long, she perked up and became happier and more active. Now, she is about to move up to a 40b with her friends. I had my crayfish in a 3 gallon tank, he slept all day, but low and behold, moved him up to a ten gallon, he is as active as can be. This true for the crabs too. If you take them out for exercise, oh my, their environment becomes interesting again, they are no longer inactive.But, with so many children and people coming home with little pink half gallon kk's, are they going to run out and get a 40b, 125 gallon tank, or go get a ten gallon for their new little pets? Unfortunately, the value people place on their pets is often correlated for what they spend on them, another reason why higher prices for crabs is not a bad idea. Okay, I am just sort of rambling here.Gertie

This statement addresses concerns about crabs being able to get in and out of the dish. It also does not expressly say that one must have a filtered pond, it simply offers it as an option. What it does advocate is having large enough or deep enough dishes that a crab can at least partially submerge in. Believe it or not, land hermit crabs can spend quite a bit of time under water before drowning. I and others have observed C. perlatus remaining under for 20+ minutes. I have also observed C. compressus remaining submerged for similar periods. Fisherman using hermit crabs for bait have reported anecdotally over an hour of submersion without drowning. When I first upgraded to larger basins, I made sure there were adequate climbing surfaces for all crabs to get in and out easily, and I specifically note the need for this in my article. I am aware of this, I specifically said PPs and Indos. I also know they can sense water and salinity. But that doesnt mean they dont fear deep water, which studies have shown PPs and Indos may. This is not to say that Es and Rugs and the link dont relish it, that wasnt in question.These are NOT fish or tropical fish. They are NOT living in the water 24/7, eating and pooping in it all the time. I have monitored ammonia levels, along with nitrate and nitrite levels closely since converting to a filtered basin without so much as a blip outside the normal range. Sorry, but not even all fish enthusiasts share your opinion of bacteria products like Cycle or StressZyme. These are class 1, non-pathogenic bacteria, as is Biotize, another "good" bacteria product. You act like bacteria is a bad thing. There are good and bad that can grow in the crab's water and in the crab's tank in and on the substrate. Even with monthly cleaning, they still build up in between. We need to foster an environment where good bacteria can out grow bad. If there is never enough waste to create an ammonia spike, water will never go through an ammonia cycle. This does not mean that you still cannot foster "good" bacterial growth in the water or on substrate.As for changing out the dish, it is not a big deal. I replace evaporated water as necessary and once a week I do a partial water change and use a fish net to remove any particulate matter such as cocnut fiber, food or feces. I dont fear bacteria, I know where it belongs and where it doesnt. Also, I dont like using artificial bacteria in their drinking water.First question: Im wondering how you were eariler stating that the bacteria content in Crab Island food was not useful since it was not a live culture, but yet you feel Cycle and Biozyme are? Where does the difference lie?2nd: If you change out your basin partially once a week, then the water IS cycling. You also stated that the water doesnt need to be cycled since it will not have more than trivial amounts of ammonia in it. Why? Because you do a partial water change weekly? I dont understand.

Cycle and Stresszyme are dormant bacteria cultures that "awaken" when they are put in the water. I know some who swear by it and others who think it's a waste of money. I'll tell you all from personal experience that it helped cycle my 20G community tank in a week. Normally this process takes a month or more. That being said, I don't see how adding more of it would benefit the water after it is already cycled. It's more of a start-up booster.All I can suggest on this subject is that if someone wants to set up a dish that will never be removed for water replacement, that they read up on the nitrogen cycle of water(found on fishkeeping websites) and fully understand it before implementing.Remember, this is DRINKING water. You certainly don't want the crabs to be intaking dirty, bacteria ridden water. Not all water bacteria is beneficial. Know the difference.