Miracle grow?

[pandaincognito]

Ive been reading for the past half hour and still haven't found what I am looking for. So I have a bigger tank and would like to turn one end into a love garden type thing. The burlap sack method seems like a good idea, but I still kind of want to section off one end of the tank with strictly soil. Is it possible to use miracle grow in a section about seven inches by four inches for some live plants? I dont know if sphagnum moss (miracle grow) is okay for hermit crabs or not? I dont want to try it and kill my collection...

Edit;; I know its okay for fish tanks if properly cycled... But not so sure for crabs since you dont really cycle crab tanks....

[nerdycrabs]

Replying because I'm wondering how to incorporate live plants into my tank as well...

What I'm thinking of doing is attaching some air plants to the sides of the tank, they don't need soil and they look great. As for a garden area, I used a 5 part sand to 1 part EE in my tank so I was thinking of having a section that only has EE and mixing in some organic compost for nutrients. Now, I know crabs will want to dig up the plants so I'm thinking I might try the burlap method? Or maybe having ledges dedicated to plants that I can rotate to give them a break? I'm curious what others do. Also, what kinds of plants are best? I want to plant things that are native to their habitat, as well as some herbs to munch on.

[pandaincognito]

I was thinking of doing that too, but regular old undyed, untreated burlap is hard to find around here. Maybe stones to help keep the plants anchored, or buried logs that the plants can be anchored to? Really what worries me is the plant soil harming my crabs lol

Cilantro is a good hardy plant, I know for sure because it grows wild in our swampy dirt, but they require lots of light



What sort of plants are air plants? Because thats a viable option as well

[nerdycrabs]

air plants are bromeliads and they have small false roots that don't really take in water well (if at all). Instead, they cling onto a host and get their water through their leaves! You can attach them to anything, a piece or driftwood or some cork would work well. They are from the same areas as PPs, so I thought they would be a nice addition.

Cilantro is a good idea, I think I'll end up planting a variety of herbs and see what survives!

I agree with the burlap, perhaps stones are the way to go. My problem with the plant soil is that I don't know what it's been treated with. I've heard about "flushing" the plants that you buy by rinsing off the dirt and replanting it in an organic mix. But to flush the potential toxins that are already inside the plant could take several months of watering and waiting.

I think the safest option is EE and organic compost and only purchasing organic plants. Or growing them from seeds yourself. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Tonight I'm going to look up native plants and I'll update you on what I find.

[pandaincognito]

Please do, I would like to do more reading but I have work in less than an hour lol between pet care and chores, research usually gets put last on the list of things to do. Is it bad that you s spend you're recreational time to research better crab environments xD

[pandaincognito]

http://permaculturenews.org/2014/08/26/ ... andy-soil/

I don't trust this one ^



http://life.gaiam.com/article/restoring-your-soil





--------------------


So I've got a plan for this. You can make your own nutritional soil that is okay for crabs. Even with sand and everything. Im literally going ro compost some of the crabs substrate...herbs are the best choice by what I am reading. Since a lot of them grow in partial shade, handle humidity well, and can grow well in sandy soil.

Now I'm going to go read about the air plants...

[DragonsFly]

You can scatter some seeds (chia seeds are super easy) right on the moist EE substrate, and they will sprout. The crabs will eat the sprouts, very good for them. Of course, this isn't the same as growing long-term, established live plants, but it's a super-easy way to start.

I've grown live plants in my tanks for years. I could not get air plants to stay alive (you might; I don't know why they always failed for me). A couple of different kinds of fern species lived for a while, but always eventually browned out and died (possibly the "salt air"; not sure). I even tried a little orchid once, in a tiny pot attached to the side of the tank, but that didn't last very long at all.

What IS happy to grow in a crab tank? POTHOS. When I was gone for months last year taking care of my parents in Florida, my husband kept the crabs alive but never watered the plants, so they died, so I am bringing up new ones to put back into the tank. Here's what I do:

Buy small pothos from local Lowe's/Home Depot/anywhere that sells house plants (if you can find a source for truly organically-grown pothos, you could by-pass some of this, but even then, if it's been sitting near plants that HAVE been chemically treated, you still might be adding pesticide residue to the tank, so patience is key, anyway). I bought mine around Christmas, since I knew the crabs would likely be emerging from molt around now, and once they were all up, I could mess around in the substrate and put in new plants, etc.

Take the little pothos plants out of their pot (there will usually be several plants growing in one pot). Rinse the soil off their roots. Put them in a new pot, with organic potting soil. I separate them and put them on different sides of one really big pot, for convenience, but so I'll have two or three plants to put in the tank eventually. Let them grow in that pot, establishing more roots and processing out any pesticides, for about three months. I'm paranoid about chlorines, so I water them with bottled spring water. That's probably overkill for the whole three months, but I would definitely not use plain tap water for at least the last couple of weeks before you plan to put them in the tank.

To keep them safe while they establish in the tank, I buy small (either the 4 or 6 inches in diameter) terra cotta pots (you can get these cheap at Lowes/Home Depot, or at Hobby Lobby, which sometimes has sales on potting things and they are REALLY cheap then). For the 6-inch pot, the hole in the bottom is usually just about the right size to cram a cork from a wine bottle in to stop up the hole. For the smaller pot, I take some aquarium sealant and seal up the hole (do this outside, the fumes are highly toxic), then let it dry for several days outside to let the toxic fumes die (after several days it is fully "cured" and completely safe to use in your tank).

I use terra cotta pots because they are GREAT for slowly dispersing moisture (from watering the plant) into the surrounding substrate. I block the holes in the bottom because if you don't, then the amount of water you have to use to water the plant will flood the bottom of your tank (found that out the messy way!).

Once the pot is ready and the plant has processed out any pesticides (it has grown in organic soil for at least three months), pot the plant in your stopped-hole terra cotta pot with organic potting soil; make the top layer (about an inch or so) with your substrate right out of the tank. This helps discourage them from digging (because if you just have organic potting soil, they will REALLY be interested in digging in that different soil, and eating it!), but it isn't enough. I also find some creative way (different with each pot) to make a kind of grid over each pot, which the plants can grow out of, but the crabs can't fit through. For example, I put a plastic rocking horse I found in a flea market (I have a "whimsy" theme for my 90g) over one of the pots. The base of the rocking horse is made in such a way that it forms a grid between the slats of the base of it and the rim of the pot. I pull the plant's stem(s) up through holes in the grid. I previously rested a piece of heavy climbing decor on top of the rocking horse to keep it there, but this time I think I will just use zip ties to secure the rocking horse to the pot, so I don't have to put something on top of the horse if I don't want to. You can also make a grid by cutting larger holes in plastic needlework canvas for the plant's vines to come through, cutting it to fit the size of the pot, and cutting slits around the edge for zip ties to attach it to a zip tie ring about the pot (below the rim, there is always an indentation that you can use to put a zip tie "collar" under). Sorry I can't remember how to post pics here, I'm sure that would help. But the main idea is to make a kind of barrier to keep the crabs out of the pot, so the plant has its own little "safe space" to grow from, where its first, main roots are defended from digging.

After that, sink the pot into the substrate so the top is about level with the substrate around it. You can also just put it on top of the substrate if you like, and the terra cotta will disperse moisture into the air, but since the crabs cannot climb the terra cotta sides of the pot, if you do this you lose that space, in a way. I do have one pot like this in the 90g, but I have a cargo net strung over it so that they can visit that "level" (the top of the pot) if they want to. It also adds to the visual obstruction in the tank, which is good for them psychologically (they don't like feeling exposed), so if you have a big enough tank, that works, too. Sometimes I nestle a food shell in there; I try to vary where I put food so they have to be more active to find it (that's a basic environmental enrichment technique zoos use for captive animals; it may help them stay in somewhat better condition in their cramped captive situation).

So, either sink the pot or use it as a visual obstruction and possible small bit of "level." Then remember to water it now and then (use whatever fresh water you offer your crabs; remember that your tap water has chlorine in it so do NOT just use that). I often dump the dirty fresh water (or at least some of it) into the plants when I take it out to clean the water source. I figure the crab poop is fertilizer for the plants. Do not use your MSW; salt water will kill the plants. (Along that same train of thought, plant your plants near the freshwater/ "jungle" side of your tank, rather than right next to the MSW source.)

Then watch your real vines grow! Once they are nicely established, they will send out LONG vines all over the place. You can wrap them around your climbing structures, and they will quickly give you real leaf cover throughout your tank. Where they touch the substrate, they will send out roots, and some of them (if they find a place that isn't popular for the crabs to dig) will establish and strengthen the plant (EE with crab poop and the occasional spill of leftover worm castings makes pothos perfectly happy). Once they are happy growing in a tank, the only problem may be that now and then you have to pull some out because they are taking over. An additional good thing about live plants with roots in the substrate is that, if you do over-moisten the substrate by accident, they will help you absorb the spill. It's just a good thing in general to try to have as much of a dynamic, interactive mini-ecosystem (with both "producers" and "consumers") as you can, within your means and the parameters of the tank environment.

I don't know why the crabs do not eat the pothos; but they don't. Having live, healthy plants in your tank is SUPER for adding humidity to the air (they give off water vapor from their leaves), and of course helps to freshen the air and provide "live" oxygen for the crabs as well. I highly recommend it, it's worth the time and fiddly-ness. It not only makes their environment healthier ("live" O2, additional humidity, more leaf cover for less stress, more natural surroundings), but it's beautiful, too. Best wishes creating your own little living jungle for your crabs.

[nerdycrabs]

You can scatter some seeds (chia seeds are super easy) right on the moist EE substrate, and they will sprout. The crabs will eat the sprouts, very good for them. Of course, this isn't the same as growing long-term, established live plants, but it's a super-easy way to start.

I've grown live plants in my tanks for years. I could not get air plants to stay alive (you might; I don't know why they always failed for me). A couple of different kinds of fern species lived for a while, but always eventually browned out and died (possibly the "salt air"; not sure). I even tried a little orchid once, in a tiny pot attached to the side of the tank, but that didn't last very long at all.

What IS happy to grow in a crab tank? POTHOS. When I was gone for months last year taking care of my parents in Florida, my husband kept the crabs alive but never watered the plants, so they died, so I am bringing up new ones to put back into the tank. Here's what I do:

Buy small pothos from local Lowe's/Home Depot/anywhere that sells house plants (if you can find a source for truly organically-grown pothos, you could by-pass some of this, but even then, if it's been sitting near plants that HAVE been chemically treated, you still might be adding pesticide residue to the tank, so patience is key, anyway). I bought mine around Christmas, since I knew the crabs would likely be emerging from molt around now, and once they were all up, I could mess around in the substrate and put in new plants, etc.

Take the little pothos plants out of their pot (there will usually be several plants growing in one pot). Rinse the soil off their roots. Put them in a new pot, with organic potting soil. I separate them and put them on different sides of one really big pot, for convenience, but so I'll have two or three plants to put in the tank eventually. Let them grow in that pot, establishing more roots and processing out any pesticides, for about three months. I'm paranoid about chlorines, so I water them with bottled spring water. That's probably overkill for the whole three months, but I would definitely not use plain tap water for at least the last couple of weeks before you plan to put them in the tank.

To keep them safe while they establish in the tank, I buy small (either the 4 or 6 inches in diameter) terra cotta pots (you can get these cheap at Lowes/Home Depot, or at Hobby Lobby, which sometimes has sales on potting things and they are REALLY cheap then). For the 6-inch pot, the hole in the bottom is usually just about the right size to cram a cork from a wine bottle in to stop up the hole. For the smaller pot, I take some aquarium sealant and seal up the hole (do this outside, the fumes are highly toxic), then let it dry for several days outside to let the toxic fumes die (after several days it is fully "cured" and completely safe to use in your tank).

I use terra cotta pots because they are GREAT for slowly dispersing moisture (from watering the plant) into the surrounding substrate. I block the holes in the bottom because if you don't, then the amount of water you have to use to water the plant will flood the bottom of your tank (found that out the messy way!).

Once the pot is ready and the plant has processed out any pesticides (it has grown in organic soil for at least three months), pot the plant in your stopped-hole terra cotta pot with organic potting soil; make the top layer (about an inch or so) with your substrate right out of the tank. This helps discourage them from digging (because if you just have organic potting soil, they will REALLY be interested in digging in that different soil, and eating it!), but it isn't enough. I also find some creative way (different with each pot) to make a kind of grid over each pot, which the plants can grow out of, but the crabs can't fit through. For example, I put a plastic rocking horse I found in a flea market (I have a "whimsy" theme for my 90g) over one of the pots. The base of the rocking horse is made in such a way that it forms a grid between the slats of the base of it and the rim of the pot. I pull the plant's stem(s) up through holes in the grid. I previously rested a piece of heavy climbing decor on top of the rocking horse to keep it there, but this time I think I will just use zip ties to secure the rocking horse to the pot, so I don't have to put something on top of the horse if I don't want to. You can also make a grid by cutting larger holes in plastic needlework canvas for the plant's vines to come through, cutting it to fit the size of the pot, and cutting slits around the edge for zip ties to attach it to a zip tie ring about the pot (below the rim, there is always an indentation that you can use to put a zip tie "collar" under). Sorry I can't remember how to post pics here, I'm sure that would help. But the main idea is to make a kind of barrier to keep the crabs out of the pot, so the plant has its own little "safe space" to grow from, where its first, main roots are defended from digging.

After that, sink the pot into the substrate so the top is about level with the substrate around it. You can also just put it on top of the substrate if you like, and the terra cotta will disperse moisture into the air, but since the crabs cannot climb the terra cotta sides of the pot, if you do this you lose that space, in a way. I do have one pot like this in the 90g, but I have a cargo net strung over it so that they can visit that "level" (the top of the pot) if they want to. It also adds to the visual obstruction in the tank, which is good for them psychologically (they don't like feeling exposed), so if you have a big enough tank, that works, too. Sometimes I nestle a food shell in there; I try to vary where I put food so they have to be more active to find it (that's a basic environmental enrichment technique zoos use for captive animals; it may help them stay in somewhat better condition in their cramped captive situation).

So, either sink the pot or use it as a visual obstruction and possible small bit of "level." Then remember to water it now and then (use whatever fresh water you offer your crabs; remember that your tap water has chlorine in it so do NOT just use that). I often dump the dirty fresh water (or at least some of it) into the plants when I take it out to clean the water source. I figure the crab poop is fertilizer for the plants. Do not use your MSW; salt water will kill the plants. (Along that same train of thought, plant your plants near the freshwater/ "jungle" side of your tank, rather than right next to the MSW source.)

Then watch your real vines grow! Once they are nicely established, they will send out LONG vines all over the place. You can wrap them around your climbing structures, and they will quickly give you real leaf cover throughout your tank. Where they touch the substrate, they will send out roots, and some of them (if they find a place that isn't popular for the crabs to dig) will establish and strengthen the plant (EE with crab poop and the occasional spill of leftover worm castings makes pothos perfectly happy). Once they are happy growing in a tank, the only problem may be that now and then you have to pull some out because they are taking over. An additional good thing about live plants with roots in the substrate is that, if you do over-moisten the substrate by accident, they will help you absorb the spill. It's just a good thing in general to try to have as much of a dynamic, interactive mini-ecosystem (with both "producers" and "consumers") as you can, within your means and the parameters of the tank environment.

I don't know why the crabs do not eat the pothos; but they don't. Having live, healthy plants in your tank is SUPER for adding humidity to the air (they give off water vapor from their leaves), and of course helps to freshen the air and provide "live" oxygen for the crabs as well. I highly recommend it, it's worth the time and fiddly-ness. It not only makes their environment healthier ("live" O2, additional humidity, more leaf cover for less stress, more natural surroundings), but it's beautiful, too. Best wishes creating your own little living jungle for your crabs.

THANK YOU! The planting tips were great, I'm definitely going to play around with netting and using terra cotta pots. I have a huge stash of pots because I'm always picking them up at the thrift store (so cheap!) and I was planning on using some to make a couple of hermie hideouts. I didn't even think about the hole on the bottom... Thanks for saving me from soaking my substrate!

Now pothos... Is that the same as Epipremnum aureum? If so, I just rooted a cutting from my friend's plant! Lucky me

In terms of other plants, here are some that I've found that seem doable, or at least worth a shot.
Plants native to the Caribbean: Aloe (Aloe vera), Prickly pear (Opuntia sp.), various Bromeliads, ferns, orchids
Plants on the safe food list: basil, chia, cilantro, clover, dandelion, fennel

I will be starting construction on a 55 gal, so I can do a lot of messing around before the big move! I am making my own textured background for the tank with lots of ledges and branches and vines. As for the Bromeliads, these LOVE hot, humid conditions. Air plants are just one type of Bromeliad, there are many kinds and they are colorful, sturdy, and hold water in their leaves like little cups. The air plants might not survive, depending on how humid of a spot they are in, but there are plenty of potted Bromeliads that should do just fine. Same goes for ferns, some might work, other might not. Time to experiment!

Orchids are tricky, tricky plants. There are orchids native to the regions that hermit crabs are from, but reproducing their environment is hard and it takes a lot of watching. I might try one out, but I'm not hopeful.

As for herbs, I think that these will be the easiest to manage. Since I'm starting from scratch, I think I will make all my planters removable so I can pull them out to check on them, do some pruning, and just give them a break from those snippy little claws, hahaha!

I'm only in the planning stage, but so far I'm thinking:
Succulents - on wall ledges, lots of drainage in their pots, stationed close to heat sources to dry out
Herbs - little planter boxes away from MSW since they are the most delicate
Vines, ferns, potted Broms - experimenting in different locations around the crabitat, can tolerate humidity/moisture well
Airplants - attached to the wall, not too close to the heat sources, plenty of air movement around them

I agree, plants are so valuable to their overall tank quality that it seems totally worth the trial and error. (Whew! Sorry for the long post, it's nice to get all my ideas out! Let me know if you have suggestions/tips/words of caution). Thank you for all of your help!

[pandaincognito]

Ive had chia going for a while in my tank ^•^ i wish the fennel seeds took, but so far they haven't. Thanks for all the info

[DragonsFly]

Yes, all those plants you mentioned from the "safe list" should be sproutable in the moist substrate. If the crabs can reach them, though, they will eat the sprouts/dig them up/disturb them, so you won't get full plants. But the heat and humidity (and salty air) in the crabitat probably wouldn't really be conducive to long-term growth for those plants, anyway, and in the case of those, the sprouts are good for the crabs to eat, anyway, so occasional sowing-and-sprouting are probably the best use for those.

I made the same list of "probable/possible natives" and tried them out in our 55g and the 90g. Like I said, some ferns did last for awhile, but never for more than about a year before browning out and dying (and I hate so much to see plants slowly fade and die, that I didn't try again, after the third round of ferns). You are welcome to try, though--maybe you'll find some varieties, or some secrets of care, that I didn't. If you get any to take hold and thrive long-term, let us know, because I really would like some little ferns again, they are pretty in the tank.

I did try some other small bromeliads, too (besides the air plants), but again, they didn't make it long. Not sure why (salt air? heat?), and that was particularly disappointing since I looked a long time for small enough specimens (and they weren't cheap!) to be able to put them on ledges safe from the crabs. Didn't help. The orchid really just faded away pretty much from the get-go; I think too hot for them, maybe? Or maybe the tiny specimen orchids are basically brought up to just bloom once and die? Not sure. I had several large orchids in our sunny bathroom in our last house that lasted and bloomed for years, but they were all too tall to fit in a crab tank, and again, it was never as hot or as humid as the crab tank consistently is. I know that there are hobbyists who spend all kinds of time and effort on bromeliads and orchids, so it is probable that their care is more complicated than the typical crabber (or me, for sure) wants to get into.

Anyway, best wishes and let us know what you find that is happy in your tank. I love the pothos, but would be happy to expand the range of "jungle plantings."

[pandaincognito]

You mentioned using terra cotta plants, if you replaced the dirt every six months or so, would that potentially help keep the plants alive?

[DragonsFly]

Plants can get root-bound in pots, and also can build up some of their waste products in pots, over time. So, for my house plants, every so often I will put their pot in the sink and let a tiny stream of water just run over the plant's leaves and through the pot, to "wash the soil." This works best if the pot has a hole or holes in the bottom and the water can flush all the way through the pot, but for pots with no drainage (like the stopped-hole pots I have in the tank), you can do a similar thing by putting them in the sink and just allowing the process to go on a lot longer, running from near one side of the pot and running off the other side (obviously not as good as having gravity help you flush clear through all the soil, though).

But yes, even if you flush out the soil periodically, depending on the plant, every year or every couple of years, you want to take them out of the pot and either just replace the soil in the same pot, or if they have outgrown that pot, give them a new and bigger pot (with new soil). So I would guess that the same conditions would apply to plants in the "vivarium" as well. However, since I've never had any but the pothos last over a year, and since the pothos generates new roots for itself which it sets down around the tank (thus avoiding root-boundness to at least some extent), I haven't yet had to re-pot anything. With the vines wrapped around climbing structures, I also could not remove the pot to flush the soil, but the pothos did not seem to care (perhaps, again, because it establishes multiple root systems eventually, so it isn't fully dependent on just the roots inside the pot). I had pothos stringing throughout the 55g for a couple of years, then moved that plant (unwinding some of the vines, and cutting some of them) to the 90g, where it lived for over a year, until my 6-month absence did it in. So that same plant lived at least 3 years, and I expect would still be alive.

If the pothos had not died last fall from lack of regular watering for six months (amazingly, it was still alive, but fading, when I got back. . . but too far gone to save, at that point), I would probably be planning to re-pot this spring/summer (whenever our jumbo decides to come up from his molt--going on a year now he's been underground. . . ), as I do a general spiff-up and substrate turnover and some redecorating in the 90g (which has had undisturbed substrate for two years, as of this summer). With the vines trailing all over the tank, that could be a bit tricky, since you'll have to do it in the tank itself (you won't be able to take the plant itself out of the tank without cutting at least some of the vines, probably), but digging the substrate away from the pot, taking the pot out and replacing the soil, then re-potting the roots of the plant (which will be waiting in the tank while you mess with the pot) in the refreshed soil in the pot (inside the tank) should be doable (if messy, but redecorating the tank always is, when substrate is involved). Alternatively, if you'd just as soon cut it back some (pothos can get VERY "enthusiastic"), you could just do what I did when I moved it from the 55g to the 90g and unwind some of the vines but cut others to get the whole thing out of the tank for awhile.

Again, let me know if you find any types or varieties other than the pothos that are happy in a crabitat; I really would love to enrich their "jungle"!

[pandaincognito]

Oh for sure!! You're experience is very helpful to those of us new to this kind of thing ^•^ my project wont start till after we move and I dont know how long that will take lol, but its good to be well read before jumping into anything involving live plants and animals

[DragonsFly]

Yes, absolutely, and setting up what basically amounts to a private zoological exhibit is a lot more complicated, and a lot higher stakes, than the pet stores want you to think. So, good for you, both for being willing to put in the time to read and learn, and for your commitment to giving your crabs the best possible captive life they can have.

[pandaincognito]

I dont like reviving old threads, but it seems easier than starting a new one. I am looking at plants tonight. I bought some pots, have the organic soil from my moms, and am planting as soon as I make it home and get dinner started. What plants will they destroy, what plants have stayed safe? I want something to promote humidity and air output, but I dont want them to completely demolish it like they do mu chia beds (I have to replace them weekly, but chia seeds are cheap, where as a potted plant isn't so cheap lol)