Humidity and Heat Fine, Substrate Drying Out?

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Lokalai
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Humidity and Heat Fine, Substrate Drying Out?

Post by Lokalai » Sun May 15, 2016 11:25 pm

My crabs have all been doing great, I'm waiting on one last one to come up from their first molt with me and have three others down molting too. It's been getting hotter here in Arizona and even with my fogger set to keep the humidity at 85%, my substrate is beginning to dry out. I have heat tape along the back and side against my water dishes and keeps the temp at 81F. FYI, the fogger and heat tape are set up to a Zoo Med hydrotherm so that I don't constantly have to worry about keeping both levels steady manually. I would hate to have to spray off the top every few days as I'm worried that it won't evaporate, but just sink to the bottom and pool up. I do use lights above the tank for light, but they don't really emit any heat. I have the fogger in the back corner of one end while the water dishes are at the other end. I also have one side of the glass lids constantly cracked so that there is air circulation instead of just stagnant air. Here is a link to show pictures of the crabitat. The sand was perfectly fine until it started getting pretty hot out here in Arizona.
<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://s1104.photobucket.com/user/Lokal ... "></iframe>
How can I keep the substrate at sandcastle consistency without possibly bothering the molters? Maybe a bubbler in one or both of the water tubs, upping the humidity with the fogger even more, or something along those lines? I have a love hate relationship with this dry, dry place, the help is much appreciated. :huh::
125 Gallon 7PP - Missy (Med), Twitchy (Med), Blue (S), Peep (S), Pokey (T), Tiny Squiggle (Micro), Munchy (S)

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soilentgringa
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Re: Humidity and Heat Fine, Substrate Drying Out?

Post by soilentgringa » Mon May 16, 2016 1:14 am

Is your substrate dry to the touch just on the surface, or all the way down? If you poke your finger into the sand, does the hole stay or collapse?

Has your hydrometer been calibrated?

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Lokalai
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Re: Humidity and Heat Fine, Substrate Drying Out?

Post by Lokalai » Mon May 16, 2016 12:05 pm

It is dry to the touch up until about 2'' down. Last night it stayed when I poked my finger into it over on the side of the fogger, but today the top 2'' isn't holding up.
125 Gallon 7PP - Missy (Med), Twitchy (Med), Blue (S), Peep (S), Pokey (T), Tiny Squiggle (Micro), Munchy (S)

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DragonsFly
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Re: Humidity and Heat Fine, Substrate Drying Out?

Post by DragonsFly » Mon May 16, 2016 7:17 pm

How deep are your water pools? If they are fairly sizable, you can try closing your lid completely and making your pools bubble pools. This insures fresh air in the tank, but it has to bubble through water first, hydrating it. You can put them on a timer so that they don't run all the time; I understand that in desert dry households, running the air through the pools may not add enough water vapor to counteract the fact that the air is coming in very dry--but if the pools are fairly deep and the pump isn't running all the time, it would be enough to get fresh, somewhat humidified air entering at substrate level while allowing you to close the lid entirely. It is better to pump air in at substrate level anyway, rather than just allowing passive air exchange at the lid level, since "bad air" tends to sink, so if air isn't actively replaced at substrate level (or if you are not actively fanning the air in the tank to stir it every so often), CO2 can build up at and below substrate level, where the crabs are hanging out the most.
--{}: Dragons Fly Farm --{}:
Resident PP's:"Major Tom" & "Billie Jean"

“An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered.”
― G.K. Chesterton

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Lokalai
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Re: Humidity and Heat Fine, Substrate Drying Out?

Post by Lokalai » Mon May 16, 2016 8:32 pm

I was thinking of the bubbler. My water dishes are "Rapid Mac Cooker" bowls that I found on sale when looking for something suitable, lol. According to the company, it's 3.5'' deep (7.5 x 6.1 x 3.5"), which is deep enough for my largest to submerge for now and for a few more molts too. I have a spare bubbler in case my bettas decides to give out someday that I could use to see if it helps. Since CO2 is heavier than oxygen, I can see how the low air intake would be better, but my aquarium is glass and has glass lids. If I shut the lid on the one side from it being cracked its 1/4-1/2'', there would be no fresh air coming in. Would a standard bubbler be able to supply enough air? It's something I've been semi paranoid about forever. And it would be better to put it into the fresh water dish, correct?
125 Gallon 7PP - Missy (Med), Twitchy (Med), Blue (S), Peep (S), Pokey (T), Tiny Squiggle (Micro), Munchy (S)

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Re: Humidity and Heat Fine, Substrate Drying Out?

Post by DragonsFly » Mon May 16, 2016 9:15 pm

It's very easy to make both pools bubble pools, all you need is a T connector (in addition to the air pump, air tubing, and bubble stones you would need to make just one). I think the T connector is like a 50 cent item.

And yes, it would definitely give them plenty of fresh air. You can get a sense for how much air is flowing by holding the end of the air tubing near your face while the pump is running, before putting on the air stone. For the very reason that CO2 tends to sink, it is definitely better, I think, in terms of air exchange, to run air actively into the tank at substrate level than simply leaving a lid propped open a bit without anything driving air movement. I too am on the "paranoid" side about air exchange, so I don't keep any tank--not even an iso--without bubble pools running fresh air in at substrate level. Where I live, though, it is only super-dry in the house during the winter. I do have the pump on a timer so it does not run all the time; I would definitely recommend that to you as well, since apparently if your household air is extremely dry, passing briefly through the water may not be enough to hydrate it, especially if it is running constantly. However, deeper pools should definitely help in that regard (which is why I asked how deep your pools were).

As for whether it is better in the fresh or MSW pool, if you can only do one, I think I would try the MSW pool first, actually. Salt "wants" to maintain 75% humidity, so if you can recreate the kind of "salt air" that naturally occurs near the ocean, that should be helpful in general. If your pool was really shallow such that the bubbler was actively spitting out a good bit of water out of the pool, this might result (over a long time) in a relative build-up of salt in the substrate right around the bubble pool--but the worst-case scenario there would be to just remove the top inch or two of substrate in that area every year or so and replace it with unsalted substrate. Probably, with pool depth of over 3 inches, unless the pump is a really strong one, that shouldn't be much of an issue.

Finally, the more I think about it, the more I think you really do need to calibrate your humidity gauge and/or get two or three others to compare (always a good idea even if there aren't squirrelly humidity issues). I could not see the picture, and don't know how big your tank is, but if your fogger is supposed to be keeping 85% humidity, but your substrate is drying out, then something is off. Maybe it is reading only the most humid place in the tank? Maybe it isn't big enough to really "fog" the entire tank (in which case adding bubblers--or a fountain, which is even better for upping humidity but won't have the advantage of bringing fresh air in so you can close the lid) is probably your next good move. Either way, I think it's probably essential that you literally close the lid. So figuring out a way to pump in fresh, humidified air at substrate level so that you can close the lid entirely and keep as much as possible of the humidity in the tank is definitely on the "to do" list. . .

Let us know how it goes; I'm really interested in the solution to this puzzle, since keeping crabs in the desert has to be one of the biggest challenges of crab-keeping. . .
--{}: Dragons Fly Farm --{}:
Resident PP's:"Major Tom" & "Billie Jean"

“An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered.”
― G.K. Chesterton

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Lokalai
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Re: Humidity and Heat Fine, Substrate Drying Out?

Post by Lokalai » Mon May 16, 2016 9:26 pm

I will pick up the supplies tomorrow and see what happens with the bubbler. I have the Zoo Med hydrotherm, which I think calibrates itself because I can't (probably unless I unplug it). I'll read through the instructions again and try to reset it to see if it is having problems. I do have a cheap little humidity gauge from the petstore that I adjusted just a month or two back, which is reading the same as the hydrotherm. I've got the digital bit in the middle back at the top so the crabs can't mess with it, but the little one I like to move it around to check the different spots. How often should I calibrate them? I might go ahead and pick up another digital one and maybe a couple more of the little cheap guys tomorrow too. Since they're both reading the same, I didn't even think about if they both may be malfunctioning. :oops:
Thank you, I'll post when I get everything set up and it either works or doesn't! :)

Update: I'll be picking up a new bubbler tomorrow, the little old spare one has terrible air output :lol: . I'll be leaving the lid cracked tonight so that they still have airflow, but I put the barely bubbly bubbler in to let them acclimate to the new thing and to maybe help a little tonight.
125 Gallon 7PP - Missy (Med), Twitchy (Med), Blue (S), Peep (S), Pokey (T), Tiny Squiggle (Micro), Munchy (S)

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Re: Humidity and Heat Fine, Substrate Drying Out?

Post by DragonsFly » Tue May 17, 2016 7:34 pm

I would go ahead and close the lid; with the bubbler in there (even if it's only "barely" bubbling), that's a constant supply of fresh air, it's fine.

It's unlikely that two gauges reading the same would both be malfunctioning the same way (unless they both read "99%"--reading that and staying on that for some time is generally a sign that the gauge has gone kaflooey, in my experience). Still, because temp and humidity are so critical for crab survival, I always have multiple gauges all over the tank. Rather than repeatedly calibrating them (cause that is a pain, to me), I just have "backups for my backups," and check conditions several times a day (or at least morning and evening) to make sure nothing's going haywire. When I get a new gauge, I calibrate it, then I just track its performance relative to other gauges in the tank. Because I have multiple gauges, and I keep them on sticks so they can be moved easily, if I see one that seems to be reading off, I can just pop it next to another one and see if they end up reading about the same after awhile. If not, then I know one is off and either needs re-calibration or has reached the end of its useful career.
--{}: Dragons Fly Farm --{}:
Resident PP's:"Major Tom" & "Billie Jean"

“An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered.”
― G.K. Chesterton

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Lokalai
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Re: Humidity and Heat Fine, Substrate Drying Out?

Post by Lokalai » Tue May 17, 2016 10:41 pm

I have had the new bubbler going in both water tubs and the lid closed for about 5-6 hours now. I'm not seeing any change with the substrate yet, but the humidity has bumped up to 87%. Hopefully in the morning the substrate will be a little damp at least. My largest crab is out early and checking out the new equipment. :crabbigsmile:
125 Gallon 7PP - Missy (Med), Twitchy (Med), Blue (S), Peep (S), Pokey (T), Tiny Squiggle (Micro), Munchy (S)

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Lokalai
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Re: Humidity and Heat Fine, Substrate Drying Out?

Post by Lokalai » Thu May 19, 2016 10:18 pm

@DragonsFly, thank you very much! :crabbigsmile:
The substrate wasn't improving with the bubbler until I gave the tank a light mist with water, but now it's dry at 1" instead of 2", so there is slow improvement now. The crabs never seemed to care and are still happy, they just have a new thing to try and destroy. :lol: Hopefully everything keeps going and problem solved, if not, I'll be back for help!
125 Gallon 7PP - Missy (Med), Twitchy (Med), Blue (S), Peep (S), Pokey (T), Tiny Squiggle (Micro), Munchy (S)

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