Article on bathing

For topics relating to crab care that do not fit into the other categories.

Topic author
Guest

Article on bathing

Post by Guest » Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:32 pm

i recieved this article from my yahoo group, maybe others have read it. it is quite long, and i am sorry for that. however, the facts it points out is quite interesting so maybe the reading will seem shorter :D

Many veteran and novice crabbers alike engage in the practice of
actively bathing their hermit crabs frequently, some as often as once
or twice per week. Most adopt this practice because it is printed on
care sheets (like the one FMR puts out), they hear about it from
other crabbers in online forums, or read it in a hermit crab care
book. The idea behind bathing is that hermit crabs as a genus were
once aquatic animals that have adapted to terrestrial life. The
thought is that regular bathing has the benefits of helping them keep
their gills moist, keeping the crabs well hydrated and cleaning out
their shells of dirt, debris and feces.

Many have also adopted the practice of adding Stress Coat to the bath
water for the moisturizing benefits of the aloe contained in it and
the thought that it will help condition their exoskeleton and replace
some of the natural oils and slime coating they may have in the wild.
This can be easily accomplished by offering an appropriate and varied
diet, including some whole fish (like sardines in spring water or
other fish with skin intact, just be leary of fish known to have
higher mercury levels, or fish that has been processed or cooked).
Commercial diets like FMR also provide for essential oils. Vertebrate
feces, such as that from a tortoise, can also be beneficial in
providing additional nutriment in the form of undigested plan matter,
animal proteins sloughed off from the GI tract and beneficial
bacteria found in their digestive tract. One caveat here is to use
only feces from a healthy animal that has been screened for
parasites; though the gastric mill of the crabs likely provides
adequate defense to most common parasites. (Adapted from Greenway
2003, pg. 18 under "Feeding and Diet"). Another use for Stress Coat
is as an aid in rehydrating/rehabilitating injured and/or dehydrated
specimens, which I will comment on later.

The information presented here is adapted from two main sources, the
book "Biology of the Land Crabs", edited by Burggren and McMahon, and
the research paper, "Terrestrial Adaptations in the Anomurans
(Crustacea: Decapoda)". Here is a link to this article:

http://www.museum.vic.gov.au/memoirs/do ... enaway.pdf

What is known from these sources, which are based upon scientific
research, is that hermit crabs maintain their shell water at salt
levels that are isosmotic (equal to) salt levels in their bodies.
Hermit crabs are separable by species with regard to their preferred
salt levels, with each species having its own preferred range of salt
levels. Beach dwelling species like C. perlatus (the Strawberry
Hermit Crab) tend to maintain salt levels that are actually of a
higher concentration than seawater, while species that live more
inland like C. clypeatus usually do not have access to seawater, and
therefore tend to have salt levels well below the concentration of
seawater. (adapted from Greenaway, 2003)

It has been well documented that the more inland species prefer
dilute water unless they are depleted of salt. (Greenaway, 2003 as
referenced from de Wilde, 1973). This would explain reports by
crabbers who actively bathe their hermit crabs that even their C.
clypeatus (considered a "more inland" species) have been observed or
noted to have "drained" their salt water dish on a regular basis.
Certainly crabs will increase water intake prior to molting, but for
C. clypeatus to frequently drain the salt water dish is likely an
indication of salt depletion due to frequent bathing in water
hyposmotic (lower in comparison) to their blood and body tissues.
This information is a very brief summary of the information found in
the article linked above starting on page 16, column 1 with the
heading "Salt and Water Balance".

Now, let me discuss the practice of actively bathing hermit crabs and
the effect it can have on their salt regulation. The procedure most
use when they bath their crabs is to submerge them, some placing them
upside down so that when they come out of their shell to turn over,
the bath water flows into their shell and rinses out dirt and feces.
Others wait until the crabs come out to walk around and then move
them around under the water to rinse out the shell. In these
processes, their shell water is swapped out for the bath water (for
some, chemically treated Stress Coat water). The net effect is that
their shell water which was once isosmotic (equal) with their blood
concentration of salt is now hyposmotic to the concentration of salt
in their blood (salt level in their shell water lower than that in
their blood and body tissues). Through osmosis, a higher
concentration will always move toward a compartment with a lower
concentration; as a result, the concentration of salts in their blood
and body tissues is lowered as some salt is lost through osmosis to
the lower concentrated shell water. This presents a problem,
potentially dropping their body salt level below the range that is
preferred for each species, especially in a beach dwelling species
like C. perlatus, which tends to be "saltier" than others for lack of
a better term. It has been noted that the renal organs of hermit
crabs (analogous to our kidneys) possibly plays a large role in their
osmoregulation through exchange of ions:

Quote:
"In aquatic species adjustments to ion content are made principally
by salt transport across the gills, and the renal organ makes only a
minor contribution. In terrestrial animals the gut and renal organs
become the main sites of ionic regulation."

Source: Biology of the Land Crabs, Burggren and McMahon, pg 213.

Since we do not know the long term effects on their body systems and
organs of the wide swings in salinity levels that can occur with
frequent bathing, perhaps we should make adjustments to the captive
care of these animals, with the goal being minimizing the overall
disturbance of their salinity levels.

Certainly, the crabs can adjust their salinity levels by selective
drinking/bathing in their habitat, and through the promotion of
evaporation (Greenaway, 2003), but again we don't know the long term
effects of wide swings in salinity levels on their osmoregulatory
systems overall and specifically their gut and renal organs.
Furthermore, one of the world's leading experts in herpetology and
captive animal husbandry, Philippe De Vosjoli recommends against
actively bathing hermit crabs for much the same reason in his
book, "The Care of Land Hermit Crabs".

The next issue to be dealt with is in regard to adding Stress Coat to
the bath water. Recently, a fellow crabber contacted the manufacturer
of Stress Coat to ask about the safety of adding it to their drinking
water. The answer was that it has not been studied and cannot be
recommended. The crabber noted that many crabbers also add it to
their bathing water. Again, the answer was this has not been studied
and cannot be recommended by the manufacturer. One point that many
Stress Coat bathers don't often realize is that their crabs are
likely exposed far longer than they think to the chemicals in Stress
Coat.

When their shell water is swapped out for Stress Coat treated water
through frequent bathing, the chemicals are now in their shell water,
and likely remain there for days after bathing, if not straight
through until the next bath all together. Even if the crabs add to
their shell water, all they are doing is diluting the chemicals. If
they are able to partially or fully submerge themselves in the
drinking water (salt and fresh) in their habitat, then some of the
chemicals no doubt wind up in their drinking water. Even changing
water every day as most crabbers do, you are likely to wind up with
some chemicals in the drinking water on a day to day basis in a set
up with multiple crabs, as each will visit the water dish on their
own schedule. Chances are somebody with Stress Coat water in their
shell will visit the water dish on a daily basis.

With these thoughts in mind many crabbers, including myself, have
opted for a more "passive" method of bathing our hermit crabs. That
is, providing basins of salt and fresh water large and deep enough to
allow the crabs to at least partially, if not fully submerge
themselves in them. One issue here is that you need to provide
adequate climbing surfaces (i.e. rocks, coral, etc.) in the basins to
ensure that even the smallest crabs can climb out from the bottom.
Some crabbers, including myself, have added a filter to their basins
in order to cut down on daily maintenance.

There are several filters that can work for this application, but you
need a water depth of about 3" to accommodate them. Penn Plax has a
Small World filter that operates off of an air pump, and they also
have a submersible filter called the Sand Shark. I have tried both
and prefer the Sand Shark. It is only a little more than the Small
World once you factor in the air pump you need for the Small World,
is much quieter, and circulates water better, creating a sort of wave
motion effect. Other brands that offer similar filters are Fluval,
Duetto and ZooMed. The most common application for these is in semi
aquatic terrariums for turtles, frogs and other semi aquatic
creatures, and most have an adjustable flow rate, making it possible
to use them in relatively small basins. To find appropriate sized
basins, measure your habitat and come up with a reasonable size that
will fit and allow for at least partial, if not full submersion. Then
visit your local pet store and look for that size dish, or visit the
tupperware isle at a local department store and measure the dishes
until you find some of appropriate size. One point to note if you
switch to a filtered basin, is that you will lose some water through
evaporation and will likely have to replace some every few days. Take
care to monitor the salinity level of the water to keep it within an
acceptable range for seawter (generally considered 1.020-1.024
specific gravity). I usually add fresh or brackish water to replace
evaporative losses so as not to increase the overall salinity. You
can monitor this with a simple hydrometer purchased at a pet store
that handles salt water fish at a cost of $10-12.

Maintenance can be an issue if you cannot filter; however, since most
crabbers change their water daily, it is not a big deal to change
water in a larger dish every day if you have to go up in size. One
problem to overcome is how does one recoup lost land surface area in
their crabitat if they have to add larger basins to accommodate
passive bathing? My answer was to landscape the terrarium so that
there is a high level of substrate at one end, molded over makeshift
caves and leveled off. What you wind up with is a natural second
level, and more surface area by way of the caves buried underneath. I
believe this can be accomplished with the smallest of crabitats and
will be happy to assist anyone with suggetions on how to do this in
their size tank. Here is a link to some photos that will show some
ideas for caves. Note the photo near the bottom of the second link
showing my C. perlatus bathing himself in a filtered saltwater basin:

http://www.kazabee.com/html/hermit_crab_stuff.html
http://www.kazabee.com/html/hermit_crab_stuff_2.html

As a matter of fairness, active bathing may be acceptable if one
cannot provide for passive bathing for the crabs in their habitat.
Active bathing would be preferable to not bathing at all, especially
if the crabs have small, shallow water dishes, or in some cases a
small shell dish with only a moist sponge (the latter of which I
certainly do not advocate), and/or if the humidity levels are low or
borderline in the crabber's home and/or the crab's habitat. If active
bathing is deemed necessary, care should be taken to minimize the
overall disturbance the crabs experience. This could mean modifying
your practices by bathing them less frequently, cutting down on the
frequency of Stress Coat use or limiting it to use for injured
specimens or those in need of rehabilitation/rehydration, and lastly
adjusting the salinity of the bath water to try to more closely match
what is likely in the shell of each species; for example, bathing C.
perlatus in full strength salt water as opposed to fresh water. There
is a chart in the Greenaway article referenced above that shows the
relative salinity levels for each species (page 17, table 3).

In closing, every crabber who actively bathes their crabs should ask
themselves the following questions:

1. How long does the Stress Coat treated water stay in my crabs'
shells
after they are bathed in it?

2. Are they exposed almost every day to Stress Coat water and the
chemicals in it as a result of my bathing because it is left in their
shell water between baths? We know crabs ingest their shell water
from time to time, they will also absorb chemicals through their
skin. Also, if they readjust by submerging in their drinking water,
the Stress Coat chemicals are likely to wind up there as well.

3. How much and how often do they actually drink when left to their
own
devices? Are they getting a bulk of their weekly drinking water
intake done at bathing time, causing them to ingest Stress Coat and
its chemicals on a regular basis?

4. What is the potential long term effect of wide swings in salinity
levels caused by once or twice weekly bathing? What is the long term
effect on the bodies of hermit crabs of constantly having to readjust
their levels-- not minor adjustments that occur through their own
natural bathing and drinking behaviors, but major adjustments
necessitated by shell water constantly being hyposmotic to blood
levels due to frequent bathing?

Give yourself honest answers to these questions. We have the
responsibility to care for these animals to the best of our ability.
This should include simulating their natural environment and giving
them the facilities they need to properly care for their own needs in
as natural a manner as possible.

Copyright 2004, Kazabee, Inc. All rights reserved.


Topic author
Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:32 pm

Great article!!!!
It shows many valid points in regards to bathing, but it also eludes that all species should be given both freshwater and sea water. I completely agree with everything this article said, which is why I do not bathe my crabs. I also offer large pools of both kinds of water for all species, my PPs love the sea water pool.
Thanks for posting this!!!!!


Topic author
Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:12 pm

In the chart in the greenaway article I cant find the coenobita compressus, what are your thoughts on the salinity for their shellwater?

User avatar

Dawn
Founding Member
Founding Member
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 2:56 pm
Location: California USA

I know

Post by Dawn » Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:22 pm

I recognize the author of that article. Intelligent man. Not really nice but well educated but I don't happen to agree with him. Not on alot of his ideas.
Hermit crab LOVER since March 2003.

If my advice doesn't help, please PM me right away. Thanks!

https://www.facebook.com/ddisomma


Topic author
Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:12 pm

Great article! I agree with the info on bathing habits. I switched to pools quite some time ago and all is well. All molts have been successful *knocks on wood* ' hermies appear happy and healthy. Couldn't ask for anything more. Trying to recreate their natural enviorment, I realized they were not being scooped up in the wild and given a bath every week or two. This is when I decided to get the pools and let them choose their bath time. Seems to be working for my guys.


Topic author
Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:31 pm

Funny, I just went to the store today with the notion that I want a saltwater pool for my straws. I don't have room for anything that big though!

I also recently stopped using stresscoat in the other crabbies' bathwater. I don't really know why, just the idea that maybe it doesn't make good "shell water", which this guy seems to feel strongly about.


Topic author
Guest

Post by Guest » Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:02 pm

It would be interesting to see what some of the long-term crab owners think about this (hint hint Christa, Laurie, Ripshaw, etc..). I would like to know if they regularly bathe their crabs and if they use StressCoat and if they have seen any effects positive or negative.

Dawn you said you don't agree with some of the points of this article, would you mind sharing what you feel and why? It would be nice to hear a different point of view so that all the new crabbers don't read this and take it as gospel and think it is the only way to take care of crabs (or start panicking thinking they have been poisoning their crabs for months).

I personally don't bathe my crabs because they seem to get really stressed out after a bath. But I have heard some people on here who have crabs that seem to love taking baths so it could be really individual to the crab.

User avatar

Dawn
Founding Member
Founding Member
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 2:56 pm
Location: California USA

I tried to discuss

Post by Dawn » Mon Nov 01, 2004 3:41 pm

I tried to get this author to explain his data on this and I have read the reference documents on what he had to say on several different topics (this one included) and couldn't make the connection from his references to his theories. And when I asked him directly to explain he belittled me and said that he already went over it too many times and refused to address my questions. He had three topics that I questioned in total. I'll try and explain how I got to the point of where I can't listen to him.

Hermit crabs have three levels of breathing structures according to the reference material that I have read. Motified gill structures, primative lung structures (not so much in Land Hermit crabs but coconut crabs) and also through the skin on their abdomen. I feel that their skin is probably more important for breathing than we once thought. To keep their skin soft and better able to conduct air/blood exchanges it needs to be kept moist. They do this inside their shells continuously. Some need more salt water than others for this and will visit the salt water pond more than the others (strawberries). But I think any added boost that we can provide (stress coat) is a benefit.

I believe that Stress Coat is good for them. To keep their skin moist and keep a protective barrier to aid in keeping moisture in. To keep their skin soft and better able to conduct air/blood exchanges. In their bath only. I bathe once a week during the winter months and sometimes twice a week during the summer months. I provide a freshwater pool (no stresscoat) big enough for them to walk into if they so choose. I also provide a salt water pool as well. They can walk through or self-bathe if they choose but I still give them baths during the summer since it's only 2-5% humidity here naturally. I think they like it and will continue to bathe them. I know my crabs pretty well by now. Other places have other humidity levels and should be taken into consideration. He didn't take any other conditions into consideration when he made his sweeping comments.

This author says that Stress Coat in their drinking water is okay for hermit crabs in another theoretical comment. I don't feel that it is good for their drinking water because we should never give hermit crabs anything 24/7. They thrive on variety. Aloe Vera (in the Stress Coat) is not for drinking. It's for their skin. When you use it you should know that the company does NOT endorse it's use for drinking water for any creature.

He says that play sand that contains silica is okay for hermit crabs because it's kept moist. I don't believe in keeping the substrate moist because it's a breeding ground for bacteria and mold. So therefore I don't agree that silica sand is okay for hermit crabs. Their skin, lungs and gills can get clogged with the silica and they will be weakened if not killed. It's a tragedy that took alot of hermit crabs' lives a couple of years ago on another message board.

This author says he feels there are valid reasons to force a hermit crab out of his shell and into another shell. This is definately wrong in my opinion. There is no reason on earth to force a hermit crab out of his shell as far as I am concerned. period. He sites his reference documents on this issue as well and I've read them and don't see where they connect. He would not tell me under what conditions he would force a crab to leave it's shell or how long he would have the hermit crab endure these conditions before he took action. After that, I quit listening to him entirely.

If you want to read his reference documentation, you can do that. I actually recommend it. Anytime anyone tells you something that you question it's okay to check out his references. Never, ever trust someone because they sound smart. They could be bluffing.
Hermit crab LOVER since March 2003.

If my advice doesn't help, please PM me right away. Thanks!

https://www.facebook.com/ddisomma


Topic author
Guest

Post by Guest » Mon Nov 01, 2004 5:00 pm

In the past I’ve been an advocate for bathing (not weekly, but periodically) as a healthy way to moisten gills. This has been primarily because no one has been able to give me a logical argument as to why it could be unhealthy. The idea that crabs are terrified of being dipped in water makes absolutely no sense given their habitat.

However, I’m inclined to agree with the article regardless of references, which aren’t really provided on either side of this debate, simply because the logic makes sense. I can’t agree with absolutely everything in the article, but the issue of balancing the amount of salinity in shell water seems to be a fair point. We all know that they balance these levels, and if the humidity is adequately high there’s no real reason to disrupt the balance and force the crabs to readjust it. I’ve always noticed the salt-water dish virtually empty on bath day, so the author’s argument makes a lot of sense given my observations. Perhaps this information calls for an advocacy of less bathing or cutting back on it entirely if possible.

I can also strongly agree that large water dishes that allow the crabs to submerge themselves are the best option and we should really encourage these instead of shallow dishes. Many crab owners even fill their water dishes entirely with wet sponges under the impression that this will prevent drowning. Crabs should be able to submerge themselves in the water dishes and safely get out.

That said, there are a few issues I don’t think this article adequately explores. As mentioned, he doesn’t take into account different humidity levels that may necessitate bathing. He also doesn’t deal with the benefits of bathing in order to rid crabs of insects, cleanse new crabs of heaven-knows-what from the pet store, or to acclimate crabs to new surroundings. Many crabbers advocate bathing crabs when putting a fresh molter back into the main tank or adding a new crab. I have noticed that crabs tend to be less aggressive towards a newcomer after they’ve all had a bath. It would be interesting to hear some analysis on whether the costs or bathing outweigh the benefits in these situations.


Topic author
Guest

Post by Guest » Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:09 pm

I bathe my hermit crabs when I need to, but not on a regular basis. I only bathe hem when they get into something gross (non-Stress Coat), when I am introducing new hermies, and when I suspect mites. (both stress coat) And just so the shell water and stress coat water isn't "swapped" Idrain each of my hermie's shells as much as I can and then give them a quick dip in regular water. That is how I keep my hermies from keeping their Stress Coat water.


Topic author
Guest

Post by Guest » Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:23 am

Interesting article, and I'm glad I read it. I was really starting to question bathing on my own because every time I've had a death or a lost limb, it was within a day or two of "bath day." It also seems to me that my larger crabs seem to tolerate the baths rather well while my smaller ones seem to be most stressed about baths.

I have one poor crabby right now who dropped her BP within 24 hours of her last bath. It might not be the bathtime . . . but then again, I can't help but wonder.


Topic author
Guest

Post by Guest » Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:19 pm

I also "instinctively" decided that bathing crabs would be redundant when they can bathe themselves, and possibly stressful. Our first crab died, and I believe it was partly from the stress of spraying and bathing. They always looked stressed to me when I did it. Since I have left the others alone to take care of themselves with the appropriate environmental amenities, they have been thriving and seem so happy. :D

Wen
crabber since Dec 2003

User avatar

JediMasterThrash
Jedi Tech Support
Jedi Tech Support
Posts: 1803
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:05 pm
Location: Nerima district of Tokyo, Japan

Post by JediMasterThrash » Thu Nov 04, 2004 7:17 pm

Providing pools for "self-bathing" rather than giving crabs regular baths is something I've promoted for a long time, and have had several threads on LHC on the subject. Here's the most recent big one. In it, I link back to a lot of prior threads on the issue:

http://www.landhermitcrabs.com/forum/sh ... &fpart=all

JMT.
Last edited by JediMasterThrash on Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Topic author
Guest

Post by Guest » Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:26 am

But what about the tap water? There is so mcuh in regular tap that I dont want my hermies swimming in, thats why I use stress coat. Which is the lesser evil...the tap or the stress coat?


Topic author
Guest

Post by Guest » Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:54 am

Ibrake4crabs,
I use spring water.

Locked