New species of coenobita found in ELHC

kgbenson · Post by **kgbenson** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:54 pm

MacandHunter wrote: If you don't like this thread, please you do not have to post in it.

I merely voiced my opinion I never said I didn't like the thread. Please do not make assumptions, you know what they say . . .

Keith

MacandHunter · Post by **MacandHunter** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:58 am

kgbenson wrote: I merely voiced my opinion I never said I didn't like the thread. Please do not make assumptions, you know what they say . . .

Keith

I actually don't know what they say, I only know the first half of the phrase.

If you think this thread is being taken too serious by some people, then you also don't have to post in it. I don't think that's an assumption.

Hopefully I'll get a reply soon from the store and I'll share it with you all.

Post by **JediMasterThrash** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:36 am

More pictures would help. Structure-wise it seems identical to a Purpureus. It is only the brown color that would indicate a variation.

I too thought Cavipe at first due to the brown color. And then I was thinking it's gotta be a Ruggie. But continued inspection reveals it as a brown purpureus.

Insofar as we know that purpureus is always blue-to-purple colored, a brown colored variant would definitely be something new. But it's unclear if it's gene variation or diet-induced variation, or truely a new species (DNAs differences prevent breeding).

The question would be populous they are. It might be "new" to us, but they have certainly been around for hundreds or millions or years. If there are millions of them, adopting a few is no different than adopting a purpureus or strawberry, which recently were "new" to us in the states. If they are potentially endangered, then it may or not be acceptable to remove them from their native lands. But considering that if they end up in the hands of scientists, we might eventually be able to breed them in captivity, which would be beneficial for all hermit crabs.

NaRnAR · Post by **NaRnAR** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:19 am

I agree with Mac 110%.

I also think people are jumping on the Veruca-Wagon a little too fast. It appears as tho the Brunneus isnt the only "new species" in the basket there..theres an Indo as well, and lots of 'em. This leaves me a little skeptical. Firstly, where are they getting all of these "new" crabs from? and the past question of are they sure this is a new species? PCR may be cheaper but whos gonna cash out so they can sell a new species on an online store? I guess if you have the money and the means...thats great if this does end up a new species, but Im in the skeptics boat with Megs.

They are cute, as all hermies are, but Im not sure I want to pay $30 +shipping for a ruggie that ate more tannin than the blue and green ones they pluck off the beach and give to petco. I mean heck, Ive got a pp thats redder than my strawberry....perhaps I could sell her and call her a straw because thats what she looks like...or maybe a variation of pp?

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:32 am

JediMasterThrash wrote:More pictures would help. Structure-wise it seems identical to a Purpureus. It is only the brown color that would indicate a variation.

I too thought Cavipe at first due to the brown color. And then I was thinking it's gotta be a Ruggie. But continued inspection reveals it as a brown purpureus.

Insofar as we know that purpureus is always blue-to-purple colored, a brown colored variant would definitely be something new. But it's unclear if it's gene variation or diet-induced variation, or truely a new species (DNAs differences prevent breeding).

The question would be populous they are. It might be "new" to us, but they have certainly been around for hundreds or millions or years. If there are millions of them, adopting a few is no different than adopting a purpureus or strawberry, which recently were "new" to us in the states. If they are potentially endangered, then it may or not be acceptable to remove them from their native lands. But considering that if they end up in the hands of scientists, we might eventually be able to breed them in captivity, which would be beneficial for all hermit crabs.

There ARE brown purpureus, juveniles. They only start changing colour once they reach a certain size. I've even got a black one. I guess that they could remain brown for much longer due to their DIET.

but then again its hard to base off a single photo.

sugarselections · Post by **sugarselections** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:11 am

NaRnAR wrote:I agree with Mac 110%.

I also think people are jumping on the Veruca-Wagon a little too fast. It appears as tho the Brunneus isnt the only "new species" in the basket there..theres an Indo as well, and lots of 'em. This leaves me a little skeptical. Firstly, where are they getting all of these "new" crabs from? and the past question of are they sure this is a new species? PCR may be cheaper but whos gonna cash out so they can sell a new species on an online store? I guess if you have the money and the means...thats great if this does end up a new species, but Im in the skeptics boat with Megs.

Just because someone starts a thread about a cute crab and everyone says they want one doesn't actually translate to people "jumping on the bandwagon" and buying them. I go into pet stores all the time and marvel at how cute the puppies are and say I want to take one home. However, I've never bought one and never will.

Whether the brunneus is really a new species or subspecies, I have no idea. I'm not an expert. However, I know that the owner of ELHC has literally spent decades traveling around the world for the specific purpose of searching out hermit crabs. I've also spent hours of the phone with him learning amazing things about hermit crabs and I know how much he truly loves hermit crabs because I have purchased from him and his care and concern for the animals is nothing short of outstanding. I guess because of that I'm more than willing to give ELHC the benefit of the doubt.

They are cute, as all hermies are, but Im not sure I want to pay $30 +shipping for a ruggie that ate more tannin than the blue and green ones they pluck off the beach and give to petco. I mean heck, Ive got a pp thats redder than my strawberry....perhaps I could sell her and call her a straw because thats what she looks like...or maybe a variation of pp?

Personally, I WOULD pay extra for a crab I know is being properly cared for by the seller and will be less likely to die when I get them home. ELHC in that way is run the same as THCP. They hold the crabs for months or even years at a time and that adds to their costs and eventually to the price of the crab for purchase. If I wanted another PP I would certainly spend the extra money to buy from Tammy as opposed to the horrible pet stores around me or other online vendors of crabs who view them as nothing more than a business. I use my money as a tool to support ethical businesses.

If we ever want crabs to be seen as something more than a throw-away pet, maybe one of the changes that needs to be made is an increase in the price per animal. Certainly many parents would shy away from purchasing pet hermit crabs for their children if they cost $30+ each instead of $5.

Crab Addict · Post by **Crab Addict** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:47 am

Wow, I read all 3 pages, lol
One thing I wish was on the website was care sheets. I heard he includes care sheets when he ships the crabs, is that true? Still, I would rather have free access to a care sheet before i purchased a crab, although i'm sure he would not be against e-mailing anyone a care sheet. And I do wish he would give us more info on the species. I think this is a good company, takes good care of the crabs and all, but i'm doubting if this is a real species. He claims DNA testing, but I wish he would go into more detail about the things that make it different from save, a juvenile blueberry, because they appear to be the same, just judging from that picture. I agree with Mac, it seems a little shady that he doesn't offer the info proving its a new species, although, he most likely would if you e-mailed him about it.
Just my opinion.

sugarselections · Post by **sugarselections** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:03 pm

I believe the reason he doesn't post his care sheets is because he has had trouble with other hermit crab vendors directly plagiarizing his work. That may not seem like a big deal, but it makes the other companies seem knowledgeable when they've really just stolen their information and don't care about the crabs at all.

I did receive various care sheets and instructions with the crabs I ordered plus extra shells. Bob also called me right after I received my crabs to make sure they were okay and to give me some additional advice and answer any questions I had.

Gab33 · Post by **Gab33** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:05 pm

sugarselections wrote: Just because someone starts a thread about a cute crab and everyone says they want one doesn't actually translate to people "jumping on the bandwagon" and buying them. I go into pet stores all the time and marvel at how cute the puppies are and say I want to take one home. However, I've never bought one and never will.

Whether the brunneus is really a new species or subspecies, I have no idea. I'm not an expert. However, I know that the owner of ELHC has literally spent decades traveling around the world for the specific purpose of searching out hermit crabs. I've also spent hours of the phone with him learning amazing things about hermit crabs and I know how much he truly loves hermit crabs because I have purchased from him and his care and concern for the animals is nothing short of outstanding. I guess because of that I'm more than willing to give ELHC the benefit of the doubt.

I for one completely agree with that.

Dog Lips · Post by **Dog Lips** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:26 pm

hm, the crab looks like an E to me, eh, oh well. Maybe it's a wacky mix of a cavipe/blueberry/E?

And I know that's unpossible, don't rip me one K?

kgbenson · Post by **kgbenson** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:10 pm

JediMasterThrash wrote:More pictures would help. Structure-wise it seems identical to a Purpureus. It is only the brown color that would indicate a variation. too thought Cavipe at first due to the brown color. And then I was thinking it's gotta be a Ruggie. But continued inspection reveals it as a brown purpureus.

Continued inspection reveals that additional images are required for a species diagnosis. If it were that clear cut, you would have nailed it the first time through. Lets face it - the pic is not going to clear this up. More pics and such are going to be needed before anyone states anything as fact. Unless you happen to have a few, or a few thousand of these buggers to look at, as the case may be.

Insofar as we know that purpureus is always blue-to-purple colored,

I am not sure this is an absolute truism. Lets face it, there are many islands in that part of the world, and many small currents, some of which may preclude genetic mixing and set the stage for speciation, subspeciation and such. It is entirely possible that there are color variants of many species that we are yet unaware of. I would expect that there are also a few species or subspecies that are as yet undiscovered. I am waiting for the dwarf coconut crabs that never get larger than 12 inches across. That would be awesome as I can't build a second house for one!

But it's unclear if it's gene variation or diet-induced variation, or truely a new species (DNAs differences prevent breeding).

Indeed. Bob seems to have some cogent reasons for making the claim he does. I guess I would love to see him write it up. - until then some folks will take a chance and buy them, others will wait.

The question would be populous they are. It might be "new" to us, but they have certainly been around for hundreds or millions or years. If there are millions of them, adopting a few is no different than adopting a purpureus or strawberry, which recently were "new" to us in the states. If they are potentially endangered, then it may or not be acceptable to remove them from their native lands.

I would agree. Up until now however the folks that make such listings and decisions have not spent a lot of time looking at the coenobitidae. Birgus is the only one that gets a mention and that mention is "insufficient data". I would love to see a comprehensive survey of coenobita species and numbers, but there are a lot of things I would like to see and ahven't seen as yet.

But considering that if they end up in the hands of scientists, we might eventually be able to breed them in captivity, which would be beneficial for all hermit crabs.

I hate to say this but, if they wind up in the hands of scientists the odds are they will be dead. There is little by way of hermit crab breeding going oan in the scientific world, in fact they have dropped the ball on studying the taxonomy of the group - not their fault, the funds dried up. Do I think that a trained scientist with experience with decapods could come up with a snappy protocol? Yep - they already have to some degree (and one of them told me that compressus were some of the easist decapods to rear), though most of the young were produced from captured ovigerous females, and not animals bred in the lab. However most decapod scientists are generally looking at other things besides making pets for people.

I would suggest that if any real progress in captive breeding is to be made it will be by private individuals who do it out of fascination with the genus or by someone who feels they can make it profitable. I could imagine a group like ORA doing this as they have done with corals and fish. Then again - I could be dead wrong.

Keith "breed yer crabs!" Benson

kgbenson · Post by **kgbenson** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:12 pm

sugarselections wrote:Some logical and cogent things

^1+

Keith

Dog Lips · Post by **Dog Lips** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:17 pm

I wish I could breed crabs, I've always had a wacky idea of making a machine that moves the lamps slowly in arching fashion, same with he moon lamp. It would simulate the movements of the sun/moon, maybe the crabs would like it.....eh. a fogger/rain maker that goes off every.....75 hours if you will, a machine that makes waves in the pools, rollie pollies everywhere, a large MHC tank where babies would go,if a crab has eggs, i'd take her out and put here in a tank directly above the MHC tank. when the crab dumps the eggs, into a container, there'd be a small tube going into the MHC tank. I figure a LHC baby is mostly MHC for a few months, then he/she molts, goes to the surface with a shell he/she got underwater, not on land.

One can dream.

kgbenson · Post by **kgbenson** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:35 pm

NaRnAR wrote:I agree with Mac 110%.

I also think people are jumping on the Veruca-Wagon a little too fast.

I am not certain what a Verruca-wagon is, but it sounds . . . um . . . . kind of knobby and perhaps a little crusty.
http://www.pennmedicine.org/encyclopedi ... t/2382.jpg

They are cute, as all hermies are, but Im not sure I want to pay $30 +shipping for a ruggie that ate more tannin than the blue and green ones they pluck off the beach and give to petco.

No harm there - and you need not, after all this is not mandatory.

I mean heck, Ive got a pp thats redder than my strawberry

Does that mean it is red, or that the perlatus is off color?

....perhaps I could sell her and call her a straw because that's what she looks like...or maybe a variation of pp?

The analogy fails. If one were to assume that you do not agree that C. brunneus is a new species then the analogy should be something like this. I have a really red clypeatus, but I am going to name it C. sicrutilusegomosnonputo and sell it as such. Of course for the above analogy to be correct you would have to also assume that he knows this is just another color variant and is fooling people as you would be doing. I feel confident, after discussing this and a great many other hermit crab related issues with the man, that this is not the case.

Keith

Dog Lips · Post by **Dog Lips** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:45 pm

Keith, any thoughts on my crackpot idea?