A Discussion on Substrate

[Guest]

Ahh OK, gotcha.

A lot of time it depends on the OP as far as what they feel they can tackle. But I definitely agree that all opinions should be heard.


In most of the threads here (at least the one's I've read since joining) seem to offer it up as a choice rather than a mandate, no?

[Tremors]

I think there are certainly benefits to a 5:1 ratio. But I also think there are benefits to 100% sand. I don't think anyone disagrees with those points. In my mind, 5:1 can come off as a bit trivial. That's 16% of your substrate. When it comes to substrate, there isn't any hard rules on what your substrate must be.

I agree. IMO, the 5:1 mix is a good substrate but not the only good substrate. I've had success with a mix of EE and sand, and I've also had success with 100% of either sand or EE.

[MudCrabDude]

...Part of my point is this: when giving the basics to new crabbers, is it too silly to suggest they have a 5:1 sand to EE ratio in their first tank? Aren't their other more important areas, and basic ideas, that we need to have them focus on first?

I'm also big on getting the conditions as close to the wild as possible. Mud, you mentioned ruggies. Do you, or does anyone else know if other species live in sand/forest areas, or more one way or the other?

Sorry, I missed this one.

As for the basics, I pretty much eyeball it to, say, about 1/3 but no more than half of my own setups, which seem to work fine.

The ones I personally witnessed are ruggies, and they do seem to be teeming in areas (at least, the crabs about the size of your average walnut) where the soil is pretty sandy, but not completely soil nor sand. I haven't seen any crabs bigger than that - I presume that as they get older and bigger, they can inhabit the more forested areas away from the shoreline.

I'm not too sure about the other species, sorry; I can only dream about going to those places in the future, though...

[SachOfSCP]

Okay, for those here at HCA who know me; you know I couldn't resist jumping in on this one.

It has been asked what is the purpose and benefit of the 5-1 mix. Well, even on a "white sand beach", it is not pure sand, but a mix of sand and decomposed (or decomposing) organic material such as dead fish (and other critters), fruit, plants, etc. So it is safe to assume that almost all species of land hermit crabs (in the wild) live in substrate that is a mix of sand and organic material.

Even handling EE versus sand, you can see that the EE is much more moist, so that does help the humidity. In my experience, adding the EE to the sand helps the humidity of the substrate, not so much the tank (as it does when it's pure EE). It also can help hold the sand together when the sand itself starts losing it's moisture, allowing less room for "error" if your tank humidity should drop.

Having the mixture also cuts down on the "dustiness" inherent in pure sand in your tank; a benefit to critters with modified gills.

Also, it has been established that EE can biodegrade molters as it decomposes so much faster and holds in more heat than sand (kinda like a compost pile). Many people have noticed a dulling of the shells of crabs who spend their time in straight EE. If it's doing this to the shells, imagine what it could to a gooey little molting crab.

I have used straight EE and had successful molts, and I have used straight EE and had a crab die in it trying to molt. I have lost a crab in the sand mix (though not from or while molting) and the crab who died in the straight EE was far more decomposed in a much shorter time. That was all the convincing I needed, personally.

I have also observed my crabs' digging habits in both mediums. I noticed in the straight EE, they buried, and that was it. They had a hard time keeping a "chimney hole" (as I call them) and they were never able to have tunnels. They simply buried covered up. In the mix, they can build a little tunnel down as deep as they want that if they choose not to close it in, you can look inches down into the hole and see them in there. When digging, the crabs actually moisten the "walls" of their tunnels (like building a sandcastle) and the EE just doesn't stay where they put it like the sand or sand mix does. Like I said before, having the EE mixed in will help the sand stay stuck better (it bonds better to the sand than to itself, maybe?) even when the sand is not at an ideal moisture level.

Although I have heard of plenty of people succeeding with only sand in their tanks it's the straight EE tanks that should be avoided. Though there are people who say they haven't had any problems with it. (Personally, I think some of them just don't want to believe that is the problem, so won't give totally accurate data, but that's just me.)

I think the point in telling a new person to use the mix is in the interest of passing on the best information that person has available to them for passing on. I don't think there is anything silly about trying to be as helpful as possible to a new person. Like Sue, I too strongly believe the mix is the best idea and I implicitly trust Exotic Land Hermit Crabs, so if they say go with a mix; that's what I'm gonna do,hh. I think the 5-1 ratio is just a good idea of the mixture. Does it have to be PRECISE? Probably not. In fact, mine (until recently) was actually probably closer to 4-2, but I will never go back to straight EE. I personally don't mix the oyster shells into the substrate, preferring instead to offer it in the food (along with other sources of calcium, of course ) so that I can keep (a little bit) better track of who is eating it and how much is being eaten.

Is the 5-1 the ONLY or BEST mix? Probably not the only, but the people I trust the most say it is the best,hh. Are there other important issues to cover for new crabbers? Absolutely. However, when it comes to substrate, it is one of the most fundamental components in your tank and the HARDEST to change if you change your mind or discover a better idea, so....I do think it's an important thing to cover in the beginning since you start your tank by putting the substrate in first.

[MacandHunter]

Thanks, Mud. I was really wondering if you knew, or anyone, about PPs substrate in the wild. I think that's most important since it's what most new crabbers have, and crabbers in general.

[framptonbmx]

Here's a picture I took in Antigua showing the substrate where I saw Caribbean hermit crabs. Keep in mind the crabs I saw were mighty young, so they may move further inland as they get older. The soils further inland had a bit larger of a soil component in the mix with the sand. Looks to me like the sand has many shell and coral fragments in it too.

[SachOfSCP]

Sweet! Thanks, that looks a lot like my substrate (though my sand is less gray since it's play sand )

[MudCrabDude]

Here's a picture I took in Antigua showing the substrate where I saw Caribbean hermit crabs. Keep in mind the crabs I saw were mighty young, so they may move further inland as they get older. The soils further inland had a bit larger of a soil component in the mix with the sand. Looks to me like the sand has many shell and coral fragments in it too.

Cool stuff

[Jedediah]

I use a half EE and half sand tank, but the crabs have mixed the sand with EE, it looks very much like the picture framptonbmx posted now. The molt in both parts, but seem to prefer the EE. I buried two pieces of cork bark in each sectino and that's a popular molting place.

The EE is not pure, though. I mixed it with three, four handfulls of soil from outside to introduce bacteria and microorganisms and I've added leaf litter, moss, twigs ect. many times since then. It's all eaten and broken down and turns into soil after a while, so I guess that now it's not really EE anymore, just soil with some coconut fibre. I don't do deep cleans either.

[Guest]

I'll chime in. My experience only spans about 1 year, but I've absorbed alot in that time.
I've used straight sand from the beginning, with my first 10gal tank using aragonite, and my 30gal now playsand. I've never had any humidity issues, and so far the crabs I have do well in sand. They enjoy digging around, even if not molting. I think it most likely was a welcome difference to the poor conditions they experienced previous, so getting into it with their legs and claws is enjoyable.
I decided against EE because of mold issues and also the new info about the degrading of molters. I live in central FL, so my temps and humidity are reasonably achieved.
I think the main point of my substrate choice is that sand is less likely to give me a hassle in terms of tank conditions and the crabs' safety.

What it all boils down to is the ease of care and maintenance. While I understand it may not be a perfect recreation of the wild habitat, I still provide as much variety in diet and other things to compensate for said differences.

[tlivs]

well i had all EE to begin with, hen i started crabbing about a year ago now

i just recently changed by substrate to 5:1
they all hate it.
every single one of them.
i have 5 crabs, and they all are staying in the shell shop day and night. Not a single one has dug down and if they need water or food (i have seen them do this numerous times) they spend as little time on the ground as possible, climbing on anything near them

i have let time pass, to see if they would eventually get used to it but it has been 4 weeks already and nothing has changed. before, all the food would be gone as they all had pigged out during the night and now not a single piece is touched most nights. this may or may not have anything to do with the substrate change but it is certainly something i have noticed

i had absolutely no problems with 100% EE before, although i am sad to hear that some people have. i will be changing back to 100% EE (maybe 75% so there is a little sand mixed into it) but all my crabs are way too stressed out for it to be about anything other than the huge substrate change


it may work for most of you but it certainly didn't work for me, sad to say.

[SachOfSCP]

I.m sorry your crabs are so stressed by the change. Were there any other changes recently that could be contributing to the stress? I noticed when I changed (from straight EE), none of mine buried down again for a long time either (well over a month), though they would hide; just not underground. It has been established that the EE does get warmer, so maybe they are comfortable enough now they don't need to bury? Even my most proficient digger didn't dig down after the change until it got too humid in the tank. Though he did spend a fair time during the day in the coconut

As for the food, I noticed mine didn't seem to be eating as much after the change either (at first), but I found out they tend to eat their substrate; especially with EE, so they may just be adjusting to not getting that in their "diet"? With mine, I also found that they definitely prefer (especially since the change) more fresh food choices, as opposed to the "crabby staples" that alot of people use. Have you also tried offering them crushed oyster shells and worm castings? Those are big faves of my guys.

Best of luck and hope they pull out of their funk soon.

[Guest]

You could also sprinkle a bit of EE on top of the sand to help them adjust, they will dig and mix it in. Once they dig in it and discover it holds the tunnels and such better they will be digging fools. Mine go through times of not going down to the sand at all then being on it all the time... I actually think it has to do with the substrate temp, because we know EE lets off a bit of green house type heat when wet while the sand seems to stay cooler.

I know it is irritating but I think after a while you will be glad for the change and so will they.

[Rosepetalbed]

I have always used Calci sand in my crabatat.....never had an issue with humidity, molts, odor, bugs etc... everything has worked out been over all pleased! This recent deep clean I did the 5:1 ratio and used a block of EE....I mixed it real well got the sand wet before hand etc....I see parts in the tank where there is section of EE And I thought about moving things in the tank to mix it but it hasn't been a huge concern.....Yesterday morning I looked in the tank from a small distance away and noticed something strange there was a small PP scurring across the food dish naked.....I quickly scooped him up and placed him into a tuperwear container so he could reshell.....he reshelled thankfully..... he also looked freshly molted.... his skin was pale and colorful but not vibrant.....placed him back in the tat shortly after some honey and he seemed to be unaffected.....this morning I looked in the tat after checking on the ruggie in iso in the tank and there was a medium PP naked.....she also looked freshly molted....It seems odd to me to have it happen 2 days in a row....I am not sure if maybe there shells are getting stuck in the substrate or maybe it has nothing to do with the substrate I am just puzzled..... I can't image the little EE that I did add making such a huge impact but at the same time I am puzzled and don't want it to keep happening......Just wanted to share my 2 cents.....

[suebee]

i think the problem could be the calci sand. It clumps and makes a hard tomb around the shell making it hard for the crab to move. A crab will jump out of the shell if he thinks he is caught in a place where the shell wont win. I personally do not like that the calci sand is usually dyed and has some kind of chemical odor. I love to watch my molters munch on crushed oyster shell pieces during a molt where they leave me a window. That would be my choice of ways to have calcium in the substrate. I think by mixing in some EE to the calci sand it may be safer. Hermits secrete a liquid that they put on their feet and push the sand, the liquid dries to fast on EE and sticks well to sand. This helps hold the tunnels. I have some tunnels that have been in place for months in my tank and the crabs go in them during the day and come out at night. They like to burrow under a log if then can. The only time ive had a naked crab was when his tail was cut due to a collapsed turbo inside the shell. I found the shell and even cut my finger on it when i stuck it inside the shell. I know crabs will also ditch the shell if the shell gets to hot due to a light or to hot heater. Hope you figure out why they are ditching shells..