That's something I can agree with completely!cass2399 wrote:NONE of us know what is exactly right. We just know what works for us and that's fine.
A Discussion on Substrate
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wodesorel
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cass2399 wrote: I just think that everyone needs to use what they think is best for them and what works for them. I almost dread coming on the boards anymore because of threads like this. They always end up with people getting upset with each other. NONE of us know what is exactly right. We just know what works for us and that's fine.
I agree with that, it seems that some people have such strong opinions that they are not willing to accept that different things work for different people and their hermies. If things are working a certain way for somebody, they need to keep it that way, regardless of what others say. If one has problems, then look into it and make changes. But I think we need to be respectful of others and not push our opinions on them, simply state what it is we are doing and let people draw their own conclusions.
Aquav, you said,
Cass2399, you said,
Aquav you also said:
Oh, and yay for me that I finally figured out how to do the quotes,hh!
Yeah, that's kinda our whole argument about Bob's research; he has been doing it for years, but so few people in certain circles seem to want to listen IMO. I agree that you shouldn't 100% cycle stuff out either.aquav wrote: In order to make an educated guess, someone does need to set up a scientific research project and report their findings over a period of months, if not years.
Cass2399, you said,
I also agree with that. Stuff like that is the reason I have already left one forum and I have run into problems like this before even here. I am by no means an expert, nor do I claim to be. I just pass on the info I get from people I consider to be FAR more knowledgeable and experienced than me and hope people take it into consideration. -off topic comment removed-cass2399 wrote:I almost dread coming on the boards anymore because of threads like this. They always end up with people getting upset with each other.
Aquav you also said:
I am for one, curious which of the various opinions presented here you think have been pushed on people or been disrespectful, because I don't think I have been pushy; just informative -off topic comment removed- As for what you say about if it is working for you, keep it that way, regardless of what others say......I do believe it's possible to get lucky even if one is doing things a way that isn't like another's-not that I am saying that is the case with everyone, just that it's possible. Like I said previously, often the climate where you live can affect what works for your crabs and what doesn't. I also know that lots of people (especially those just starting out) like to explore all of the available options out there.aquav wrote:I agree with that, it seems that some people have such strong opinions that they are not willing to accept that different things work for different people and their hermies. If things are working a certain way for somebody, they need to keep it that way, regardless of what others say. If one has problems, then look into it and make changes. But I think we need to be respectful of others and not push our opinions on them, simply state what it is we are doing and let people draw their own conclusions.
Oh, and yay for me that I finally figured out how to do the quotes,hh!
mamaturtle2000, as far as the research Bob has done goes, I stayed out of the last thread addressing this, but I will repeat what others said back then:
I would like for some kind of written information to be presented. I would like to form my own opinion on his findings and not just go off what others say he told them.
As far as the other issue is concerned, I feel that everyone here is trying to help others by suggesting what they think is the best method and I appreciate that.
I just wish that people wouldn't get so defensive when someone has a differing opinion, that's all.
Why can't we all get along...
I would like for some kind of written information to be presented. I would like to form my own opinion on his findings and not just go off what others say he told them.
As far as the other issue is concerned, I feel that everyone here is trying to help others by suggesting what they think is the best method and I appreciate that.
I just wish that people wouldn't get so defensive when someone has a differing opinion, that's all.
Why can't we all get along...
Well, at the risk of sounding like I am starting something here.....
why does it have to be in writing to be believed? I mean no one in this thread has anything in writing substantiating what they have found to work for them. The Hermit Crab Patch says the same thing as Bob:
http://www.hermitcrabpatch.com/Hermit-C ... -a/148.htm
This is what they say about where they learned about the crabs:
http://www.hermitcrabpatch.com/My-Learn ... -a/153.htm
I am not posting these to be snarky, just to show that there are some things out there that substantiate what people say are good methods.
As to the other issue, I also wish that people wouldn't be so defensive about stuff & would get along better,hh
why does it have to be in writing to be believed? I mean no one in this thread has anything in writing substantiating what they have found to work for them. The Hermit Crab Patch says the same thing as Bob:
http://www.hermitcrabpatch.com/Hermit-C ... -a/148.htm
This is what they say about where they learned about the crabs:
http://www.hermitcrabpatch.com/My-Learn ... -a/153.htm
I am not posting these to be snarky, just to show that there are some things out there that substantiate what people say are good methods.
As to the other issue, I also wish that people wouldn't be so defensive about stuff & would get along better,hh
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why would he lie about something like that, why would I or Mamaturtle, or Suebee? Do you think we have stock in sand or something?
What possible reason would we have to lie about something like this?
The reason these go bad is because we take it personally. And the reason that happens is because in the end the people bringing a new idea to the table are thought of as liars or troublemakers.
No one is lying, for very real reasons we find the mix to be better for our crabs. A large scale vendor who has been doing it for many years says it is a good thing too. Does it have to be in writing for me to believe him, no... because I don't have trust issues that run that deep.
What possible reason would we have to lie about something like this?
The reason these go bad is because we take it personally. And the reason that happens is because in the end the people bringing a new idea to the table are thought of as liars or troublemakers.
No one is lying, for very real reasons we find the mix to be better for our crabs. A large scale vendor who has been doing it for many years says it is a good thing too. Does it have to be in writing for me to believe him, no... because I don't have trust issues that run that deep.
I wish there was a "Like" button here like on Facebook, cuz I liked that,hh.
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JediMasterThrash
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Wow dude.
I absolutely love the amount of great new information I keep finding in these threads. But for the love of Yoda stop bickering. A good argument is fine. All I ask is take a second before you click that "Submit" button and read over your post one more time. Try to think if there's something, or some poor choice of wording, that could be misconstrued by someone, or could be offensive to someone. And if you read something offensive, just assume they didn't intend it that way, and don't try to get defensive in response.
Misinterpret me, you will not. I've got experience in this. I'm the emperor of saying stupid things. Heck I'm married, I'm reminded of how stupid the things I say are on a daily basis
LOL
So anyway, if you think I'm talking about you, I probably am. If you think I should be talking about someone else, I'm probably talking about them too.
Now for the other 90% of this thread:
1. In my experience, EE doesn't biodegrade "live" crabs. But it does biodegrade dead crabs. If a crab dies during molt, within 3 months the crab will "disappear". This can also happen to a slower extent in extremely damp sand.
2. I switched away from even 50% EE due to it mucking up the water filters.
3. I own 4 books written in the 50s to the 90s on crab care, by people with decades of experience. Some of the advice in the books would shock you. Stuff we used to tell people 5 years ago would make you laugh today. Crab care is continuously evolving. Nothing is "right" or "wrong". Stuff is just good advice or recommendations.
In fact, here's an old post of mine, a little "counter-culture" dark side post:
http://www.hermitcrabassociation.com/ph ... hp?t=57785&
4. There are many, many variables to crab care. It's hard to identify which ones are causing deaths, or are helping maintain the long-lifers. I remember someone once had a ton of deaths and tried changing everything to no avail, only finally realizing one bottle of food had gone bad.
A certain substrate may work best for one crabber who keeps a certain humidity, uses UTH instead of lights, replaces water daily, spot cleans poo, and bathes crabs.
A different substrate may work best for another crabber with a different humidity, uses lights, uses water filters, does partial substrate changes, and dumps saltwater into the substrate.
The number of variables is just very large. And that's why it will always be the case that what works for one person may not work for another.
5. All the members of this board, and other boards (LHC, CSJ, etc), and other websites (TCP) who have performed experiments, or have experience, have posted articles describing their experiences, experiments, and anecdotal information.
6. Climate is not particularly relevant if you have air conditioning. I can guarantee that except for about 2 months out of the year, our house is never the same temp nor humidity as it is outside. I think crabs respond more to pressure and day/night cycles. Now if you live in Florida and let your crabs live in the backyard, that might be a different story.
7. I had 50 crabs when I was in high school and I knew every one by name, and new which shell each was in, and I took them all out for a "walk" in my room every night. Now I have 30 crabs, only a few have names, and I admit I too am a crab hoarder
I just love having tons of little guys crawling all over my bonsai.
8. Nobody thinks Bob is lying. I respect the experience and advice. In fact I think the 5:1 is good advice. But some of us wish he would share his knowledge directly with the community. Just because we desire to see first-hand information doesn't mean we think he's lying. Please do not continue to believe that is so.
I absolutely love the amount of great new information I keep finding in these threads. But for the love of Yoda stop bickering. A good argument is fine. All I ask is take a second before you click that "Submit" button and read over your post one more time. Try to think if there's something, or some poor choice of wording, that could be misconstrued by someone, or could be offensive to someone. And if you read something offensive, just assume they didn't intend it that way, and don't try to get defensive in response.
Misinterpret me, you will not. I've got experience in this. I'm the emperor of saying stupid things. Heck I'm married, I'm reminded of how stupid the things I say are on a daily basis
LOLSo anyway, if you think I'm talking about you, I probably am. If you think I should be talking about someone else, I'm probably talking about them too.
Now for the other 90% of this thread:
1. In my experience, EE doesn't biodegrade "live" crabs. But it does biodegrade dead crabs. If a crab dies during molt, within 3 months the crab will "disappear". This can also happen to a slower extent in extremely damp sand.
2. I switched away from even 50% EE due to it mucking up the water filters.
3. I own 4 books written in the 50s to the 90s on crab care, by people with decades of experience. Some of the advice in the books would shock you. Stuff we used to tell people 5 years ago would make you laugh today. Crab care is continuously evolving. Nothing is "right" or "wrong". Stuff is just good advice or recommendations.
In fact, here's an old post of mine, a little "counter-culture" dark side post:
http://www.hermitcrabassociation.com/ph ... hp?t=57785&
4. There are many, many variables to crab care. It's hard to identify which ones are causing deaths, or are helping maintain the long-lifers. I remember someone once had a ton of deaths and tried changing everything to no avail, only finally realizing one bottle of food had gone bad.
A certain substrate may work best for one crabber who keeps a certain humidity, uses UTH instead of lights, replaces water daily, spot cleans poo, and bathes crabs.
A different substrate may work best for another crabber with a different humidity, uses lights, uses water filters, does partial substrate changes, and dumps saltwater into the substrate.
The number of variables is just very large. And that's why it will always be the case that what works for one person may not work for another.
5. All the members of this board, and other boards (LHC, CSJ, etc), and other websites (TCP) who have performed experiments, or have experience, have posted articles describing their experiences, experiments, and anecdotal information.
6. Climate is not particularly relevant if you have air conditioning. I can guarantee that except for about 2 months out of the year, our house is never the same temp nor humidity as it is outside. I think crabs respond more to pressure and day/night cycles. Now if you live in Florida and let your crabs live in the backyard, that might be a different story.
7. I had 50 crabs when I was in high school and I knew every one by name, and new which shell each was in, and I took them all out for a "walk" in my room every night. Now I have 30 crabs, only a few have names, and I admit I too am a crab hoarder
I just love having tons of little guys crawling all over my bonsai.8. Nobody thinks Bob is lying. I respect the experience and advice. In fact I think the 5:1 is good advice. But some of us wish he would share his knowledge directly with the community. Just because we desire to see first-hand information doesn't mean we think he's lying. Please do not continue to believe that is so.
JMT.
Stuck-up, half-witted, scruffy-looking crab-herder since '92.
Stuck-up, half-witted, scruffy-looking crab-herder since '92.
I've never thought that anyone was lying at all. I think the 5:1 mix is a perfectly fine substrate, and it's wonderful that it works so well for all of you. However, there are lots of points to be made on both sides. For starters, I've never had any issues with straight EE, so I'd like to see some written research before I decide that straight EE is unacceptable. The same thing goes with the 5:1 mix - I know it works well for some people, but other substrates work well for other people, so I'd like some more info before I decide which one is the best.
There aren't any hard and fast rules about which substrate is the best at this point, and something that works well for one person may not work well for another. As I've said before, I think the 5:1 mix is a good substrate but definitely not the only good substrate.
I think the 5:1 mix is a perfectly fine substrate, and it's wonderful that it works so well for all of you. However, there are lots of points to be made on both sides. For starters, I've never had any issues with straight EE, so I'd like to see some written research before I decide that straight EE is unacceptable. The same thing goes with the 5:1 mix - I know it works well for some people, but other substrates work well for other people, so I'd like some more info before I decide which one is the best.There aren't any hard and fast rules about which substrate is the best at this point, and something that works well for one person may not work well for another. As I've said before, I think the 5:1 mix is a good substrate but definitely not the only good substrate.
4 PPs: Petra (11 years), Big Crab (7 years), Rambunctious Crab (7 years), John Smith (1 year)
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when someone offers to share the findings of research they have done with me, the last thing i say is "I want to see that in writing" lol.. I would not of gotten this far in life or crabbing if I did that. After all if you get that stupid book "hermit crabs for dummies" in writing you will see LOTS of misinformation. Out dated information too.
Im just happy the information is shared. You can see the substrate choice IN WRITING at the Hermit crab patch.
Im Thankful that they are willing to share the years of research trial and error and i dont have to take those chances with my hermit crabs.
Im just happy the information is shared. You can see the substrate choice IN WRITING at the Hermit crab patch.
Im Thankful that they are willing to share the years of research trial and error and i dont have to take those chances with my hermit crabs.
I buy from ELHC or HCP, I CANNOT RECEIVE PM MESSAGES SO EMAIL ME,anytime! suebeebuzz@me.com visit my Hermit Crab Dollar Store. Crabbing from aprox 1974- I own 12 Species,On Face Book-Susan Staff's Coenobita Research of New Jersey
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amycolette
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I have been using 100% playsand for 2 years now with no problems. Different things seem to work for different people...
Last edited by amycolette on Thu May 27, 2010 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
B.S. Wildlife & Fisheries Science, Penn State University
Prowd keeper of 12 PPs and 6 Es.
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I think we all agree that different things are working for different people. The bickering is occurring because of this underlying subtext of doubt and mistrust.
When Mac started this he wanted reasons why, we provided the reasons that we had observed and discussed with others. At that point, as usual it became bickering. Yes I bickered, and the other side does too. Besides, why can't we have productive arguments, why does everything have to be 100% agree with this or that? I am not going to change their minds and they won't change mine, that is ok. Everything was reasonably tame until someone mentioned the deleted thread (which I thought we weren't supposed to talk about) and wanted written proof. Why does that make us upset? Because it implies that we are spouting this info with nothing to back it up, it implies that we have no idea what we are talking about. And that folks no matter how you cut it is an insult.
When Mac started this he wanted reasons why, we provided the reasons that we had observed and discussed with others. At that point, as usual it became bickering. Yes I bickered, and the other side does too. Besides, why can't we have productive arguments, why does everything have to be 100% agree with this or that? I am not going to change their minds and they won't change mine, that is ok. Everything was reasonably tame until someone mentioned the deleted thread (which I thought we weren't supposed to talk about) and wanted written proof. Why does that make us upset? Because it implies that we are spouting this info with nothing to back it up, it implies that we have no idea what we are talking about. And that folks no matter how you cut it is an insult.
Re: A Discussion on Substrate
This thread started as both a request for a discussion on who uses what and a question on the benefits of the 5:1 mix.MacandHunter wrote:I wanted to have a discussion about substrate. I don't know if I've missed the memo, but recently there have been recommendations by a couple of people to use the 5 parts sand, 1 part EE mix. (with the crushed oyster shells)
I wanted to hear why this is a good idea, and have a general conversation about what type of substrate we all use, and how it's working out. First, if someone can explain, in their opinion, the benefits of the above mix that would be great.
Several people have stated what they use. Several people have explained the benefits of the 5:1 mix and at least 2 people (myself included) have linked to The Hermit Crab Patch with their recommendation of it and explanation as to why it is beneficial. Here it is again:
http://www.hermitcrabpatch.com/Hermit-C ... -a/148.htm
The in-fighting, IMO (opinions were asked for), starts when it starts becoming a "show it to me in writing" and the arguing of why all these alternatives to a 5:1 mix are better, or that people shouldn't be recommending the 5:1 mix. It starts when there are deviations from the original topic.
Maybe I misunderstood the point or am not as proficient a reader as I thought myself to be, but I didn't think this was supposed to be a discussion on why the 5:1 isn't a good mix or a discussion on proving things in writing, or a discussion on who should be believed about what. We were asked to say what we all use, and for those of us that use and believe in the 5:1 mix, our "opinion" on it's benefits.
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If you would be so kind and scroll back to reread my posts in this thread you will see that I have been nothing but respectful.gclnin wrote: Everything was reasonably tame until someone mentioned the deleted thread (which I thought we weren't supposed to talk about) and wanted written proof. Why does that make us upset? Because it implies that we are spouting this info with nothing to back it up, it implies that we have no idea what we are talking about. And that folks no matter how you cut it is an insult.
I am very hurt by the fact that you are blaming my comment on me personally requiring scientific research, for this thread going bad.
I have not once stated that anyone, on either side of this topic is, in your words, "spouting info with nothing to back it up" or "that you have no idea what you are talking about". Personally, I am simply a very research driven person, therefore I would like to see actual scientific data on this topic. I am in no way criticizing any methods, as long as they are beneficial to the hermit crabs.
I am very glad that the ratio works for you, I think it is wonderful. We are all here to improve the lives of our hermit crabs.
Hopefully we can all put this thread behind us now and get back to hermit crab care.
Peace