Aussie salt water myth?

tigermoon89 · Post by **tigermoon89** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:39 pm

Congrats! She's absolutely adorable! How big was she when you first got her? (Would you know her age at all?)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:55 pm

This is very frustrating, I do not think the care sheet should be changed.

The research TNT4eva has quoted may be old, but at least it is published and referenced. It is real research as opposed to hearsay.

Suebee - I have asked for the names of the researchers in you have claimed supported restricted salt water access, but you have not provided them, or in deed anything to back it up. In fact you have put the onus on us to prove you are wrong. I am sorry but I believe if you are asking people to change conditions and take away a vital part of what is available in the wild then the onus should be on you to back up your position.

In summary of this thread we have found that the research shows they live near and on the beaches. They are harvested off the beaches. The only Australian exporter of Coenobita variabilis has stated on their website that it is ok leave the salt water in thier tank for them to use when they like.

In support of the salt water myth we have Suebee and GcInin, both stating that the research proves them right, neither stating what the research is. In fact GcInin in his post PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 6:27 am first states the the crazy crab vender supports the salt water restriction myth (not true as can be see reading closely on his website.) but then goes on to say the against that "we have an application by a single vendor mentioning, quite vaguely, the harvest area"
What GcInin has missed is that they are the same vender. Crazy Crab harvest off the beach.

Then gcInin states

"Again, this is what science calls wild conjecture. You are basing assumptions on the most superficial descriptions of habitat and behavior. Bringing this to the table against decades of first hand information on thousands upon thousands of what qualify as case observations in no way even begins to crack the foundation of established needs in captivity. In fact, information from early trials by vendors of these crabs indicates fairly clearly that continuous availability of salt water can be disastrous in captivity."

what research? What vender? who are they referring to here? What decades of first hand information?

Then gcInin actually does list a scientific paper

A field guide to Crustaceans of Australian Waters"
D.S. Jones
The Australian Journal of Crustacean Biology 1992 edition

which actually supports the fact that they are live on and next to the beach but gcInin goes on to say

"Regardless of whatever government investigations, scientific data or owner verification in Australia might back up the information, ultimately the people with the most experience with these creatures, the most qualified to offer observations and data, and the public originators of these care guidelines are indeed the vendors, and ultimately it seems you are not going to accept information from them. "

But the vender is Crazy Crabs who says it is ok to have continous access to salt water.

This whole debate seems to be built on a miss reading of the Crazy crab website and then supported by hearsay and references to unnamed unspecified researchers.

Please accept I am not personally attacking anyone but trying to have a clear debate about the issue. I can not see any evidence at all to support the salt water myth.

Suebee - I will take your advice and personally phone up the Australian Exporter. I can even visit them since they are just down the rd. However will you also please back up your position with the names of the researchers you are refering to so we can get to the bottom of this?

Thankyou Jennie

sugarselections · Post by **sugarselections** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:06 pm

tigermoon89 wrote:Congrats! She's absolutely adorable! How big was she when you first got her? (Would you know her age at all?)

I don't know her age but Darwin's body was only the size of a large pea when I got her. She was very tiny. She's tripled or even quadrupled in size since then.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:19 pm

Hi,

ok I just spoke to to the Australian Exporter of Coenobita variabilis. As I thought they are the ONLY exporter of Aussies. They have been selling the crabs since 1979. They said they only give them a salt bath once a week because they offer salt through other means, (seasponges, beach sand etc).

They said it is ok to leave the salt water dish there and give them 24hour access. They recommend that you do leave the dish there if you don't provide salt though other means. They had no idea where the salt water myth comes from.

I am pretty sure the salt water restriction myth did not originate in Australia. Until I came on this site I had never even heard of it.

thanks Jennie

sugarselections · Post by **sugarselections** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:34 pm

Jennie-

Wow! Thanks for writing such clear, thoughtful, and informative posts.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:38 pm

Hi Sugar,

no worries! Your Darwin is beautiful. I am glad she is getting such good care on the far side of the world!! Those little ones moult like crazy too!

cheers Jennie

suebee · Post by **suebee** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:01 pm

i find it hard to believe that if you asked Merv Cooper being species specific and mentioned Exotic Land Hermit Crabs where he personal knows the owner who is the one and only person in the US that can import the Coenobita variabilis about the salt water once a week also being specific about the age and size of crabs that he said salt water at all times is safe..I can be safe for full grown crabs however once a week is just as safe and due to most crabs not being full size and it not being safe its best to give it once a week.. The researchers name who owns ELHC has been mentioned through this site prob 100's of times.. As a buyer of hermit crabs in your country im sorry but i believe you are being told to give salt water more often by pet shops to sell more salt and more crabs.. The species sheet is saying its a controversy its not saying one way or the other.. Researchers can work together between countries and that is what is going on.
You may of called the company but i dont think you spoke to the exporter who holds the license. Maybe someone who works for him. When I see people who have Aussies that are over 10 years old like Bobs and breeding then I will say they must be doing the right thing.. and no I dont have to give prof of that to anyone here. Ive seen them. I dont need anyone else to believe it..I dont care that they do. I only do what i can to help out the crabs and the people who would like my advise and i do get emails from ones who do not want to post here because they do not want to be talked down to.. I put the info out that im aware of because it is appreciated. You do not have to accept it or believe it.. Do what you know is best for your crabs. I dont think its wrong to believe that other methods will work.. I just want to share what i feel my opinions are. Ive been asked so i share.. This is just one subject.. There are many that many people have different opinions on..
Blessings, Sue

tnt4eva · Post by **tnt4eva** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:05 pm

Suebee, I've never, ever been told by a pet shop to give salt water to my hermit crabs. Most believe it unnecessary.

The reason I believe they should have salt water at all times is because they are found in mangroves and intertidal zones (amongst other places). That means that they have immediate and direct access to salt water when they need it. They don't just have access to it on a weekly or biweekly basis.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:21 pm

The Exporter told me directly that ELHC are now out of business and anyway he certainly did NOT get that information from them (but yes they did export to him). They mostly certainly did say salt water at all times is safe for all crabs of all ages.

The company is not very large, I spoke in depth for 15mins about their export license (which they have only had for around 4-5 years.) Therefore how can Bob have had Aussies for 10 years? They were not available overseas then.

Anyway I am only asking you for proof is because you are trying to get the care sheet written to follow your advice on this myth.

My feeling here is that someone (I am guessing Bob from ELHC) has told you this is true. And as you respect him you believe him and therefore don't need any evidence. This is fine for your personal care of crabs but should not be a basis for the crab care sheet. I also have come to the conclusion that no evidence/research we can provide here is going to change your mind.

I only hope that others realize that all the research you have been quoting is essentially one persons opinion and at that an opinion which flies in the face all all other known research and experience.

cheers Jennie

Post by **wodesorel** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:22 pm

I can't understand how anyone in the US could have had c. variablis for 10 years - they were not allowed to be legally exported until February of 2009. There would have been no way to legally purchase them.

Over the years, the applicant has received much interest from overseas for these animals, but there has not been any lawful method of exporting them overseas. This is the reason the applicant is applying for this export permit. An increase in orders due to the ability to sell animals on the
overseas market would mean an increase in the collection of wild stocks during the year. Since the initial proposal was submitted in February 2009 we have made shipments to the United States, (export figures have been sent to the Department of the Environment, Water, Heritage and the Arts (DEWHA)).

http://www.environment.gov.au/biodivers ... oposal.pdf

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:35 pm

In act I have an idea for anyone who may be confused on this issue, contact the Exporter yourself. They are the only exporter of Coenobita variabilis so all crabs of this species which go overseas go through their hands. They have been operating since 1979.

Here is their web address
http://www.crazycrabs.com/main.html

here is their email

info@crazycrabs.com

ask them yourself if it is ok to let your Coenobita variabilis have 24 hours access to a saltwater bowl regardless of their age.

Let this myth be rested for once and for all!

suebee · Post by **suebee** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:40 pm

think... if the crabs were not here ....then maybe Bob was there? ahhhh... its not that hard to figure out. I also said his crabs were over 10 years old and that is just some of them.. I didnt give ages of all his crabs nore did i say how long he has had any of them..

Are you saying you spoke with Merv?

Bob is closed due to Illness he is not out of Business. His Business is still in effect and is still his. Not that any of that is any ones business.

As i mentioned earlier the proposed sheet states that its controversial i dont see why that would be a problem for anyone . I just didnt think the sheet should state that the salt water once a week was a myth. ive seen it proven to be very true. With people haveing unexplained deaths of aussies, aussies that dont live for much more then a year and then looking at aussies that are very big dna tested to be multi years old and living healthy reproducing years. I would think you would be happy for me to share that info.. Many here know Bob not just me Im not the only one who has met him. I may be the only one who choses to speak up because they dont think this cause is worth it but many know that Bob is not just himself one researcher. He works with researchers around the world as well as here in the US.

tigermoon89 · Post by **tigermoon89** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:42 pm

I'll send the email and post the result here

Thanks everyone for a healthy constructive debate so far, it's been very informative!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:43 pm

hi Wodesorel,

actually they have been exporting longer then that. I found out in my conversation to them that they have to reapply every year which is why it says 2009 on that application but they have now been exporting 4 and a half years overseas. Still a good point, definitely not 10 years!

cheers
Jennie

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:59 pm

I did not speak to Merv - I think it was his wife, but please email him yourself. You didn't even know his name a few posts ago but now only he personally in the company will do? Re: ELHC - I am only repeating what Crazy Crabs said and that they are not exporting to him anymore. Also I notice the website is down.

I have crabs over 10 years old too, any of the big ones are, again doesn't mean they have been in captivity that long. So is Bob a long term Australian resident?

The lady who taught me has had her Aussies for over 5 years with 24hour access so I find it hard to believe that you have had some die from engorging in salt water. If I find other Australians who had had their crabs continuously for more then 5 years with 24 hour access to salt water? would you believe it is ok then?

As you did say "Unexplained deaths" which are surely that - unexplained!
Surely it is a big jump to say it is from Salt water engorgement, especially when no one else has had the problem.