Aussie salt water myth?

[TheCrabbyTabby]

Thanks everyone for a healthy constructive debate so far, it's been very informative!

I like healthy, constructive debates. It gets me interested and active. Just as long as it doesn't turn into an all out, he said she said, name calling war where the same old fruitless points are hashed and rehashed futilely. Then the constructive debate would be thrown right out the window and all would be lost to needless, immature and child-like scrutiny. Don't get me wrong, I have done my share of name calling and "he said she said" debating in the past, I just don't want this to come to that.

Other than that, keep at it!

As for my view of the "Great Aussie Salt Water Debate", I think that if a crab is deprived of something like salt water for long enough they would indeed gorge on it because they probably don't know when they will get it next, and that's why some have gorged themselves to death. Wouldn't you eat like there is no tomorrow if you've been starved to the point of almost dying and then were given an all you could eat buffet?

This brings me to another point. There is such a thing as being in such severe shock from eating after a starving for so long that your body can't handle both the richness and the sudden quantity of the food. This causes the body to react to the food as though it were poison and thus causing death. I forget the exact name of this effect but its very well known among nutritionists and doctors alike. To counteract this "poisoning effect", small amounts of food are given to the person/animal over a period of time and very gradually made bigger until their the body is adjusted to and reacts normally to regular feedings.

Perhaps this practice should be implemented to Aussies if one feels it is necessary?

[Guest]

Hi Crabby Tabby,

that is a good point about engorging when having been deprived of something. I am very lucky to be in Perth which is the base for the Crazy Crab exporting company. From the companies head quarters they go to my shop who takes very good care of them. I imagine the hermit crabs I get are as healthy as it is possible to be in captivity as they would have very little transit and good care at the end. I know TNT4eva over on the other side of Australia has not been so lucky and has brought very sick ones. I imagine how stressed they are and the state they in would have an impact on how well they first survive in thier new home. Maybe in these circumstances when they are first in this plentiful environment they would engorge. As you said I guess if in doubt you could slowly introduce them to food/ salt water etc and limit the supply at first before increasing to as much as they like.

It was also a good point about a healthy, constructive debate. I am trying to keep it that way and not be personal. Anyone is welcome to PM me if they think I am crossing a line or coming across too harsh, that is certainly not the intention!!

cheers Jennie

[suebee]

Because i chose not to bring a persons personal name into a thread does not mean that i dont know him or that he doesnt know of me. I also am married and I know my husband can not speak about the crabs and who I know who I have visited researched with. Im not telling you that you have to take my advise.. Its out there for those that have asked for it.. For young aussies i believe because of the research i have seen that ist safest not to offer salt water at all times. I do think its safe to offer the salt as a food source. I also think its safe to offer fresh water at all times for them.
My points have been made.. I also think that if ever you get to talk to the Exporter him self and he decides to talk to you about his time here in the US or his other Times with Bob he will agree with me. Other wise i believe anyone else is selling you salt and more crabs.. Just my personal opinion.. Maybe you can set up multi tanks like others have done with exact age crabs and exact conditions except for the salt water checking the salt water shell content and get back to us in a few years letting us know how your research want. Untill then I have to go with the same research ive already seen done.
We will have to agree to disagree.
It may be ok for larger Aussie crabs but I still feel its ok and most safe to just offer them salt as a food source or in the food source and salt water once a week.. with daily water changes this is not such a big deal or a hard thing to remember.
I also would not recommend keeping Aussies on a substrate of EE also known as Coir or Eco earth or coco nut bedding.. They do best on Sand.
I think i have covered all that I intend to cover on the HCA without repeating myself.
One last thought.. I wouldn't assume things about me or others unless you know for sure. You make statements of what and who I know without the knowledge to back it up.. Also keep up the research.. most of the info on the internet is out dated if you have the option of working with researchers there in your country start in person on hands where you can see it. I have opportunities here that have been a blessing to me and i have shared what i can. I will continue on sites that want to hear the info as i learn it.. There will be a day i have documents to back it up and maybe this site is one that should wait till then.. Untill then..Sue

[Guest]

"Because i chose not to bring a persons personal name into a thread does not mean that i dont know him or that he doesnt know of me."
Suebee, you said yourself a few posts back "I also want to say I have no idea who Merv Cooper is and i am not referring to any old no longer true advise on hermit crabs that is on the net.."

All the research you have mentioned seems to be relating to unpublished work by ELHC. I can go down and visit Merv Cooper myself, it is not hard for me to do. But his company representative does NOT back you up, either by phone or on their website.

I have not made any assumptions about you, I have only tried to clarify what has been written in this thread.

I have been looking at some of the other forums, on some of the other sites there are Aussies who had their crabs for many years with no adverse effects. One person mentioned seven years.

The only thing I can find anywhere on the web, or research, or venders to back you up is unspecified, unpublished research by ELHC mentioned by you and a handful of others. Against this is all the research into their biology and habitats, the word/and website of the Australian exporter and the experience of many other Australian crabbers.

It seems strange to me that it would take a US researcher to discover this thing about crabs when we have been keeping them here for all 35 years. Do you really think that no one has kept them for more then a year in all of that time?

Also another thing you have not addressed which was at the beginning of this thread you were sure that the Coenobita variabilis was not found on beaches "There is only one person who can ship Aussies out of Australia and he says that they are not found on the beaches and they should only be given limited access to salt water." This person you are referring to here is Merv Cooper.

then sugerselections said
Actually, you've been misinformed. Wodesorel has already posted info here at the HCA that confirms that the crabs being exported to the U.S. from Australia are to be "harvested from beaches between Exmouth Gulf and Derby, Western Australia (a range of approximately 1500km), with the main collecting area being 80 Mile Beach located between Port Hedland and Broome, and other areas north of Exmouth". That's from the official government export prosposal of the only person allowed to export hermit crabs from Australia.

you then said
"Ask them if the crabs are found on the beach. I believer the Government paper is wrong.. Not that our government has ever been wrong before.."

But you didn't realize that same 'government paper' was the export license applied for by the same company Merv Coopers Crazy Crabs that you are quoting as saying "he says that they are not found on the beaches".

Once again your source for this myth does not back you up. I don't need to make assumptions, your own words show that your arguments are full of holes and contradictions.

[tigermoon89]

This brings me to another point. There is such a thing as being in such severe shock from eating after a starving for so long that your body can't handle both the richness and the sudden quantity of the food. This causes the body to react to the food as though it were poison and thus causing death. I forget the exact name of this effect but its very well known among nutritionists and doctors alike. To counteract this "poisoning effect", small amounts of food are given to the person/animal over a period of time and very gradually made bigger until their the body is adjusted to and reacts normally to regular feedings.

This is a very good point! Since there is so much debate and it's pretty obvious that casualties have been had due to the salt water intake (not all crabs but there are enough that the salt water rule has continued to circulate) so perhaps these crabs have been deprived for too long.

As a general rule- I do feel that it would be best when introducing Aussies (especially ones from deplorable conditions) to offer the salt water once a week and gradually increase it to 2x then 3x (increase up to x's) a week.

Each time, monitor the crabs intake and reaction to the salt water. I would suggest doing each period of offerings for at least a month each. This way, the crab(s) have a chance to adjust to the frequency and increase in water. This will help them realize that they don't need to 'stock up' if/ when they have constant access to it.

If it appears that they are spending an unhealthy amount of time in the water- take it out. If this proves to be the case- note the size of the crab(s) so that we can possibly guess at their age. With time (as they get larger) attempt to reintroduce the water again at the same intervals and note if any behavior has changed.

If the above is not the case- increase to everyday access and note any changes in behavior. If all seems to be normal healthy crab behavior- and over time no ill effects start to arise for what appears to be no reason, then the crabs are healthy and okay to have continued access to the salt water. (Also note the size of these crabs from beginning of the trial).

[wodesorel]

This is a very good point! Since there is so much debate and it's pretty obvious that casualties have been had due to the salt water intake (not all crabs but there are enough that the salt water rule has continued to circulate) so perhaps these crabs have been deprived for too long.

The question should be how many casualties from salt-water intake has there actually been?

Have a number of people here lost aussies due to gourging, or is it just a perpetuated myth?

If it's only one or two people, could 'regular' PPS be the culprit instead of the salt water? There will always be losses to PPS, even in the best conditions - could the mix-up be that the water got blamed rather than known causes of new crab deaths.

If it were actually due to salt water, then there should be masses of people experiencing multiple deaths when they keep their aussies with salt-water full time.

[tnt4eva]

If it were actually due to salt water, then there should be masses of people experiencing multiple deaths when they keep their aussies with salt-water full time.

Exactly. I'd also expect to see my aussie crabs in the water more frequently....especially the smaller ones if they are the ones that gorge themselves. The last time I saw a crab near the salt water pool it was drinking some salt water for a minute or two before going down to molt. Seeing them near or in the salt water is a rare occurrence, and generally only happens when one is running away after seeing me near the tank and falls in. And then they bolt out of the water ASAP. I've never seen one of them intentionally submerge itself.

If my Aussies, small ones included are gorging, then gorging consists of sipping or bathing in salt water for several minutes once or twice a week.

I find it very curious that Aussies have a reputation with some as dying unexpectedly more than other crabs and that Straws also have this reputation. Straws are also from Australia. Perhaps there is some environmental condition here that is harder to replicate in captivity.

Also - something that people do not seem to understand is that these things live on the beaches. My sources may be from ten years ago, but I fail to see how that alters the findings - namely that they are found in the intertidal and supratidal zones which means the part of the beach exposed at low tide but covered at high tide and above the high tide mark.

I know people who live or have lived where the crabs live. The crabs are frequently on the beach near the water.

These links confirm this.

http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/s ... l?id=81631

http://202.14.152.30/dampier/documents/ ... 0intro.pdf

http://www2.dpi.qld.gov.au/fishweb/13542.html

http://www.nt.gov.au/nreta/environment/ ... ec_7_9.pdf

[tigermoon89]

I find it very curious that Aussies have a reputation with some as dying unexpectedly more than other crabs and that Straws also have this reputation. Straws are also from Australia. Perhaps there is some environmental condition here that is harder to replicate in captivity.

I have often wondered this myself. I'm currently doing research on that very question.

[tnt4eva]

I have often wondered this myself. I'm currently doing research on that very question.

I'm wondering if it is something to do with UV light. We get a massive amount of it here - so much so that it's actually dangerous to spend time in the sun unprotected.

My crab tank gets plenty of natural light, but in the afternoons when the sun goes over, they crowd to the corner where the sun is directly visible.

And I've also read the UV light helps Straws maintain their color.

So maybe UV lights are more important for some species.

The other thing - when I first came to this forum, I was surprised at the guidelines for temperature. I soon realised that our Australian crabs are use to much higher temps than other species seem to like.

[tigermoon89]

That's a very good point! Thanks tnt4eva!

Just an update:
I have emailed Merv and Bob from ELHC. I will post the responses as soon as I receive them. In the mean time, it would help if the members that have Aussies can answer Wodesorels questions as well as

State which method they use: limited salt water or 24/7 access
How large their Aussies were when they got them
How often each size spends time in the salt water dish
How often each molts (to determine if the salt water (limit or unlimited) has any effect.
Appearance of Exo after each molt (ie: dull or shiny, any patches or spots that shouldn't be there...)
Energy levels of the crabs on a daily basis

If there have been any deaths considered to be due to salt water gorging-
How soon did they pass after you brought them home
What conditions did they come from at the store
Why you think it was due to salt water

[tnt4eva]

State which method they use: limited salt water or 24/7 access
24/7 access

How large their Aussies were when they got them
Ranging from teenies to medium/large

How often each size spends time in the salt water dish
There doesn’t appear to be an discrepancy with size on this, at least not with mine. Roughly I might seem them drinking or sitting with their leg tips in the salt water a few times a week. This is more often if they are about to molt - i.e. daily.

How often each molts (to determine if the salt water (limit or unlimited) has any effect.
Only one teenie has finished a molt with me – the other is still molting. The small/mediums molted every few months. The medium/large molted I think 2 times in about 9 months.

Appearance of Exo after each molt (ie: dull or shiny, any patches or spots that shouldn't be there...)
Mostly shiny and hard with normal patterns. Exceptions: one small crab which after its first molt with me had a very, very fragile and pale exo. It’s LP broke off and it tried to molt again immediately and died.

Another small crab with injured legs burrowed down immediately after purchase. It died. I do not think it molted. It’s exo was like chalk. It did not visit the salt water dish before digging down. Both were from the same shop – pellet food only, intermittent fresh water and no salt water.

Energy levels of the crabs on a daily basis
If they were any more active while they were up, I’d have to nail everything down because they are like to destroy the tank. They dig a lot – the tank currently looks like a rabbit warren.

If there have been any deaths considered to be due to salt water gorging-
No. I believe the deaths I outlined above to be due to poor nutrition in the pet shop I got them from. I had some deaths after switching water conditioner brands, one where a molter seemed to get attacked and another where the body of the molter was never found so I presume it was eaten.

How soon did they pass after you brought them home
N/A

What conditions did they come from at the store
Most stores here are the same – pellet food only with fresh water but no salt water. Most pet shops here (Sydney)see salt water as more or less optional. The really bad places don’t have fresh water either.

Why you think it was due to salt water
N/A

[Guest]

Hi,

I have had my hermies for 10 months. In that time I have had 4 deaths, two were lost over the top of the tank before I got a flyscreen cover to go across the air gap. I had no idea they could climb the silicon joint. Two more crabs were killed by crab aggression, I had a very aggressive large new comer, they were torn apart. So none of mine have died in any unexplained manner, all very clear causes of death.

Mine range in all sizes. One of the very first we got was a Teenie called Sleepyhead, about the size of a very small marble in shell. He is not a Teenie anymore, a small, and has had multible successful moults. He is very active and healthy.

Re: visits to the salt bowl, mine actually hang out there a bit. The teenies never go in it but the big ones go for a swim now and then, not regularly. I know they go in there a bit because it is always full of noodles which is a bit gross!! I have a big rock which sits on top of the bowl so they like to hang out under it near the water.

My crabs are very very active, they come out in mass around 6pm, they are so noisy after the lights go out I can hear them across the house.

I hope this helps!!

cheers Jennie

[Nat_addicted to HC's]

I am eagerly Looking forward to reading the responses from merv and bob!
most of you would probably already know my thoughts on this myth my post is linked to on the C.V. care sheet.

My A's to wodersol's Q's
The question should be how many casualties from salt-water intake has there actually been? I have had none

Have a number of people here lost aussies due to gourging, or is it just a perpetuated myth? I think it was misunderstood information

If it's only one or two people, could 'regular' PPS be the culprit instead of the salt water? There will always be losses to PPS, even in the best conditions - could the mix-up be that the water got blamed rather than known causes of new crab deaths. Highly likely

My A's to Tigermoon89 Q's
State which method they use: 24/7 access
How large their Aussies were when they got them: Teeny's up to medium
How often each size spends time in the salt water dish: roughly the same amount of sand in the bottom of their fresh and salt water dishes in the mornings, new crabs straight home from the store nearly always hang in the salt water dish for a few minutes before heading of to explore and dig, not long later they are in the freshwater dish, it really depends on what one they discovered first I guess. I know they go in and out of both dishes with the same behavior/enthusiasm towards the water as I have sat up and watched them countless times.
How often each molts (to determine if the salt water (limit or unlimited) has any effect.: My crabs molt like crazy, there is always a crab or two or three down molting at any given time. my teeny ones are not teeny anymore! my larger crabs dont molt as often, 3-4 times a year. My new crabs, 2 out of 3 have molted and up sized their shells.
Appearance of Exo after each molt (ie: dull or shiny, any patches or spots that shouldn't be there...): each one has been different slightly, some are paler and others are darker, all have been shiny and hard, they have consumed all but a few bits of the pinchers of their exo, no noticeable abnormalities, before and after (especially after) cuttlefish is heavily fed on. The darker ones are often feeding on vine wood bark, dehydrated beetroot, red rose petals and bladderwrack.
Energy levels of the crabs on a daily basis: I have a rabbit worren tank too tnt4eva, they could not get more active than they are I hope!

If there have been any deaths considered to be due to salt water gorging-
How soon did they pass after you brought them home
What conditions did they come from at the store
Why you think it was due to salt water................
these last couple of questions dont really apply for my crabs, I have not lost one due to PPS. The losses I have had have been due to an aggressive crab that dug up everybody and was caught feeding on a molter after stealing his shell & one escaped and died due to the synthetic residual pesticide that I had our brand new home sprayed with before moving in.

The stores I have rescued (purchased) from have had their crabs in apaulling conditions, except one store= pet domain
several of my crabs were missing legs, leg tips and pincher's. All have come good after a few molts!



Come on all of you experienced Australian crabbers who are long time members of HCA, post and tell us about your experiences, I know you can back us up on this Myth

[Guest]

One last thought, I don't know if any of you have heard of Vanessa Pike-Russel. Here is her website http://users.tpg.com.au/users/vanessap/hermit/cs/

She has been keeping Australian hermies and researching them since 1994. She is the founder of the Hermit Crab Patch forem. She advocates 24hours access to salt water. I read recently that she use to bath them once a week, not because of gorging fears but because that was what everyone use to do with all of their crabs regardless of species. Around 2004 she changed to just providing 24 hour access and reported that her survival rate made a significant increase.

I am off for a few days but maybe someone else could try reading through her site or contacting her to verify.

I think restricted access to saltwater could ONLY be justified as a temporary thing for deprived crabs and therefore is more of a ISO concern.

cheers Jennie

[tigermoon89]

I will contact Vanessa and post back here when I receive the results