Zoo med shells

StephBaby · Post by **StephBaby** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:26 pm

Before.i joined this site i bought a two pack of zoo med shells. They are painted but not the paint does not chip. I know painted shells are bad but iwas wondering if these were ok. I think i know the answer already ( being no of course), but i just want to get some opinions. They are not.in my tank currently an i have plenty of natural shells so i dont need to use them. I was just curious if anyone has heard of them.or used them.

Libbster · Post by **Libbster** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:32 pm

If I were u I wouldn't because
a. All paint chips even if it says it does not
b. hermit crabs eat the edge of the shell and paint is harmful to them.

Lucille · Post by **Lucille** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:43 pm

Could you please elaborate? I would not use painted shells, but there are all sorts of paints for various things that might find their way into a crab's home, many are non toxic and I believe lead is no longer used as a component of paint. So please say something about the nature of harm from using a non toxic paint?
I believe if we think these things through and ask for specifics, all of us can grow as keepers because we will make decisions and know the reason we are making them.

Bridgitmac80 · Post by **Bridgitmac80** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:15 pm

I am not 100% on this, but I think the reason ALL paint's are harmful to them is when ingested by them, they are un-able to digest the paint's properly, therefore their systems get diseased and it slowly kills them. Even if it is non-toxic paint, that simply mean's it's been tested for use around humans and domestic animals such as cats and dogs. Companies do not test for crabs, spiders, roaches, ants, ect. All paint's have chemicals in them of some sort, many are harmful to the crabs.

Hope this helped you

Lucille · Post by **Lucille** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:25 pm

Can you please cite some papers that say something about paint and digestion? Crabs are notorious for eating everything and I imagine some of the accessories such as cholla may be nibbled on but indigestible.
Seriously, I would like to see the researched real deal. If you are saying that some chemicals are harmful to crabs. which ones are harmful and how?

Post by **wodesorel** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:40 pm

Paint on shell is different than paint on objects since the shells suffer so much abuse. They get chipped, and scratched, and modified by the crab. Because of this, no matter how well they are painted when new, they will end up chipping and peeling over time. You also can't force a crab out of a shell that is peeling when it happens, so that crab might end up being in that shell for years. It's just not worth trying to do it.

There haven't been any scientific studies done on paint and hermit crabs, simply because no one cares enough to do so. The companies that make these things certainly won't! The ingredients that go into the paint, as well as the chemicals that off gas from it, are not safe to aquatic animals or invertebrates. Heck, these things are safe for humans to breath just check the MSDS on the paint in question to see what I mean.

I can tell you from personal experience that my first crab that came in a painted shell and when he changed out and I attempted to clean the shell off so it was still usable. Once I got the sealant off the entire kitchen smelled like an autobody paint shop. I'm a human with lungs, and it was bothering my breathing. I couldn't imaging having gills a fraction of an inch from those toxins for months on end.

There's also the case of the crab that died from ingesting paint. Unfortunately the site that hosted that article is down at the moment. Maybe someone else knows where it can be found for now?

Lucille · Post by **Lucille** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:51 pm

wodesorel wrote:Paint on shell is different than paint on objects since the shells suffer so much abuse. They get chipped, and scratched, and modified by the crab. Because of this, no matter how well they are painted when new, they will end up chipping and peeling over time. You also can't force a crab out of a shell that is peeling when it happens, so that crab might end up being in that shell for years. It's just not worth trying to do it.

There haven't been any scientific studies done on paint and hermit crabs, simply because no one cares enough to do so. The companies that make these things certainly won't! The ingredients that go into the paint, as well as the chemicals that off gas from it, are not safe to aquatic animals or invertebrates. Heck, these things are safe for humans to breath just check the MSDS on the paint in question to see what I mean.

I can tell you from personal experience that my first crab that came in a painted shell and when he changed out and I attempted to clean the shell off so it was still usable. Once I got the sealant off the entire kitchen smelled like an autobody paint shop. I'm a human with lungs, and it was bothering my breathing. I couldn't imaging having gills a fraction of an inch from those toxins for months on end.

There's also the case of the crab that died from ingesting paint. Unfortunately the site that hosted that article is down at the moment. Maybe someone else knows where it can be found for now?

I have to agree on the painted shell thing just because I've seen how the shell is sometimes painted while the crab is still in it. But I question whether all paint is the same and whether it is all toxic, I do not think that is the case once the paint is dried. I'd be interested in seeing the article.
I have an aquarium 3D backing that was made to be submerged and used with fish, it is painted, so my question is not just academic.

Post by **wodesorel** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:39 pm

It's non-toxic to humans. Not to animals. I won't have things like formaldehyde or lead or cadmium in it. It doesn't mean it doesn't contain chemicals or elements that are harmful to non-mammals. There's lots of things out there that for instance insects can eat that would kill a human, and things that humans or dogs could eat that would kill ants. Unless chemicals are tested directly on hermit crabs there's no way to say that it's safe. I don't understand why anyone would want to try and take that risk when there are completely safe options available?

cjmiller · Post by **cjmiller** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:43 pm

I am not meaning to speak for anyone, but I think what Lucille is getting at is some items are obviously painted, so how do we know which is good paint and which is bad? (correct me if I am wrong Lucille)

For example, in the DIY section someone (I don't know who it was off the top of my head) that made an AWESOME waterfall out of foam.....and painted it. (love it.....very jealous of it) So the question would be what kind of paint was used on the waterfall? Same with aquarium ornaments in general, they are painted, so are they unsafe?

Maybe? I don't know, I could be wrong.

Careyenz · Post by **Careyenz** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:45 pm

Even if the shell looks good, the paint will eventually wear off. It does flake terribly. I have one E who has worn through two painted shells. The first one he wore until it was completely paint free then finally switched. He ended up in a second because I brought home a new pp who switched over night, and he moved right in to that ugly painted shell. It was in perfect shape when he moved in, and now only the top has paint on it. When I upgraded last month, I found pieces of paint from that first shell in the substrate. It's not worth it, but you might be able to peel it off.

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Post by **wodesorel** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:50 pm

Aquarium paint is a different class of paints as they don't have to hold up to a lot of abuse and they aren't expected to be shiny. They've been used for decades and they definitely won't leech anything toxic into water. I believe that most are sealed with a animal safe epoxy, and yes, if that barrier was breached it could cause problems. Hermit crabs generally don't eat the plastic decorations. They do eat their own shells and they will peel and eat the paint off.

The waterfall DIY project is going to be sealed with a crab-safe sealant before it's used. (Two-part epoxy would be the safest as once it's cured it's inert plastic.) Doesn't matter what paint will be used, if it's sealed well enough so the crabs never touch it.

Lucille · Post by **Lucille** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:11 pm

Here is the backing for the crabitat. It is nowhere near ready, the coir will be here in a few days to mix with the sand and more is to be done.

Careyenz · Post by **Careyenz** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:19 pm

I looks fantastic! I'd love to try something like that myself. It looks so complicated!! I love it!

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Lucille · Post by **Lucille** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:58 pm

Thank you!! It is not complicated, there are online instructions for 3D backings. But they can take quite a bit of time. I did not make this one, it was purchased from a young man in an aquarium community that had made it for himself and then decided he wanted a thinner one for his aquarium (this one ranges from two to six inches at the biggest outcroppings wide), so he started another. It has many nooks and crannies that I think the future crab residents are going to appreciate. It is a 55 gallon tank.
When I look at crabitats, my favorites are the ones with 3D components, whether that is netting, branches, etc. That gives crabs exponentially more room to move around, more so than the all flat ones.

Squeaky · Post by **Squeaky** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:11 pm

I made the foam waterfall - it is mostly grey grout with some paint to highlight and contour, so it's not a solid coat of paint. It has been coated with sealer and then marine silicone (same thing the tanks are put together with) over the top of that. I know that I will have to inspect it over time and re-seal as needed in the event the crabs try to pick and eat it. As has already been said, this thing won't the nearly the abuse or be as used/picked at as the shells the are in 24/7/365.

HCA: Hermit Crab Association

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