What do I need to know about Bettas??

[Bridgitmac80]

Just took the mirror out, thanks for showing me that! Fish just like hermit crabs, more bad harmful advice out there than what is right for them.

[Emily]

Do you have some sources you could provide me with regarding DT HM males muscles collapsing by a certain age and leading to the ensuing consequences? I'm well aware of the fact that increased finnage is directly correlated to loss of agility and mobility to certain points, with even VTs showing a marked difference from actual wild-type bettas, but this is the first I've heard of it to that extreme. Both of my male bettas are double tails, one being an HM, the other not quite, so more of a delta. When you say they're very prone to fin rot and skin diseases also, is this something due to a genetic factor or is it a direct result of these actual types of tails and correlating body build (i.e. DTs usually being more "short-bodied" than STs)?

There are no sources that I can give you other than personal experience, general knowledge, and years of breeding and interacting with other breeders. My friend is a more advanced breeder than I am, and she noticed and tracked the trend(she wasn't the first to notice, but thought it would be a good idea). It's not always accurate. Usually by "collapse" it means that they swim just fine, but flaring is impaired or impossible, and the fish die relatively soon after. Around 4 months earlier than other tail types. She deals with the more expensive bettas, like halfmoons. I'm more of a crowntail and colour variation artist I'm trying to get a really good piebald line going.

Double halfmoons are different than double tails, just pointing that out. A double tail merely has two lobes. A double half-moon has not only two lobes, but each lobe is around 100 degrees of fin or more.They overlap to produce an enormous fan, this is a good example:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k7uqdZAFxpw/T ... 497850.jpg
The double halfmoons are the ones that collapse. Double tails are just another variation.

Also, double halfmoons are mutations, and you cannot (well, should not) breed them to get more DHM's, you can only produce the healthy ones from normal DT's and try to get a fish with a double/halfmoon spread with over 200 degrees of fin. This is a mutation that can either cause the fish to live a long time (unlikely) and more likely results in the fish dying earlier. However people have tried to breed DHM's and that's when the super weak genetic line got introduced. Some babies survived, but since the parents were genetically weaker fish too, these babies produced weaker offspring etc.

DELTA's are usually bred from wild-type fish and are definitely genetically stronger fish than even the VT's. I love plakats myself. I can't wait to get my hand on a sexy breeding pair once I expand

Skin Problems:
The skin problems usually ensue from the tail being in close contact with fecal matter. Plakats and VT's and deltas generally keep their tails out of the way of their feces, however with long draping tails, the fins rub against their poop.

Skin problems also happen more because their fins can get caught or rip on any sharp object, or get caught in filters, under rocks etc. Or by nipping. Often this goes unnoticed because there is just SO MUCH TAIL! Lol. If untreated the skin gets infected much more easily. Especially when in contact with fecal matter, or when the tank isn't cleaned regularly (every 5-7 days, including gravel).
Stressed fish are more likely to nip, which includes bettas in ridiculously small tanks, bettas who do not get enough to eat, or who are bothered constantly by bright lights, or who are next to other male bettas. Or just idiot fish. Once they nip they open themselves up to even more infection.

These are just a few of the problems.

[Eugooglizer]

How many years have you been breeding bettas? Is your friend on any forums where she's posted any of the data trends she's been tracking--I'm always interested in seeing hard numbers like that and think its great when people take the time to record these things.

I'm very familiar with the various tail types having been in the hobby for quite a few years now and having bred bettas myself for a time. I have 2 adult male DTs, one with lobes that both spread over 100* and another with ones not quite as large. I've had them in the past as well. I have never had an issue with any kind of muscle "collapse" and young deaths with mine, which is one of the reasons why I was so curious. They obviously are not the most agile swimmers and I'm extremely careful to keep currents to a minimum in their tanks especially (another reason I'm such a strong proponent of sponge filters for bettas).

Your statement regarding the breeding of HM DTs does not coincide with my personal experience, the various breeding programs of others that I've followed/continue to follow, or other research I've done personally, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

The skin problems you're describing can happen with any long-tailed betta kept in conditions where their coming into contact dirty tank bottoms, which is a husbandry issue. Tail rips or tears from objects in the tank are again, something that can be prevented by taking care with items in the tank, and are actually something that, in the past, show up most often with CTs. Tail biting appears to be something that can be either genetic or environmental (and certainly both in some cases) but its not something linked only to DTs or HMs or HM DTs.

[Happy Crabber]

So interesting!

Do you guys have a website or forum that you recommend for good info? I found the IBC, but I was surprised that they charge for info on betta care. Seems counter productive for them. If they really wanted Bettas to be kept well, they should give out the info. I was a little irritated.

And- given the article that Wode posted, what is the best way to keep up their tail/fin strength? If mirrors are out, is it best to have more than one betta in adjacent tanks? Or does that just stress them out?

Lauren- do you know any breeders in the SF bay area? How does a gal get a nice healthy fish?

I went to my local aquarium shop this weekend, and it was too crowded to actually grab a guy to talk. They did have a few bettas, but I wasn't super impressed. Much bigger and more interesting selection at Petco. But I won't give up. I was heartened to overhear a conversation of the shop guy refusing to sell fish to a very persistent customer because her water had ammonia. She was determined to leave with more fish, and he was not going to sell them to her until her water improved. So- I guess they're pretty responsible about who they sell to. That's good.

Re: sponge filters... is that just a sponge on the end of a tube? I followed the link and I see lots of tubes and sponges, how does that thing work?

Thanks for the lively discussion....

[Eugooglizer]

So interesting!

Do you guys have a website or forum that you recommend for good info? I found the IBC, but I was surprised that they charge for info on betta care. Seems counter productive for them. If they really wanted Bettas to be kept well, they should give out the info. I was a little irritated.

And- given the article that Wode posted, what is the best way to keep up their tail/fin strength? If mirrors are out, is it best to have more than one betta in adjacent tanks? Or does that just stress them out?

Lauren- do you know any breeders in the SF bay area? How does a gal get a nice healthy fish?

I went to my local aquarium shop this weekend, and it was too crowded to actually grab a guy to talk. They did have a few bettas, but I wasn't super impressed. Much bigger and more interesting selection at Petco. But I won't give up. I was heartened to overhear a conversation of the shop guy refusing to sell fish to a very persistent customer because her water had ammonia. She was determined to leave with more fish, and he was not going to sell them to her until her water improved. So- I guess they're pretty responsible about who they sell to. That's good.

Re: sponge filters... is that just a sponge on the end of a tube? I followed the link and I see lots of tubes and sponges, how does that thing work?

Thanks for the lively discussion....

I actually have mirrors that I will use periodically for my males to flare at because it actually does strengthen and use certain muscles that you want to stay strong, its the constant presence of one and subsequent stress thats an issue.

Here is the forum I recommend: http://www.bettafish.com/

Excellent post on sponge filters: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=126530

Theres also a classifieds section where breeders will post available fish as well as people rehoming theirs, etc. that you can use to try and find someone local or at least get recommendations. I know there are def some good breeders in cali, just not sure which areas exactly.

Keep us updated, I look forward to seeing which betta (or bettas lol) you end up with

[Emily]

How many years have you been breeding bettas? Is your friend on any forums where she's posted any of the data trends she's been tracking--I'm always interested in seeing hard numbers like that and think its great when people take the time to record these things.

I'm very familiar with the various tail types having been in the hobby for quite a few years now and having bred bettas myself for a time. I have 2 adult male DTs, one with lobes that both spread over 100* and another with ones not quite as large. I've had them in the past as well. I have never had an issue with any kind of muscle "collapse" and young deaths with mine, which is one of the reasons why I was so curious. They obviously are not the most agile swimmers and I'm extremely careful to keep currents to a minimum in their tanks especially (another reason I'm such a strong proponent of sponge filters for bettas).

Your statement regarding the breeding of HM DTs does not coincide with my personal experience, the various breeding programs of others that I've followed/continue to follow, or other research I've done personally, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

The skin problems you're describing can happen with any long-tailed betta kept in conditions where their coming into contact dirty tank bottoms, which is a husbandry issue. Tail rips or tears from objects in the tank are again, something that can be prevented by taking care with items in the tank, and are actually something that, in the past, show up most often with CTs. Tail biting appears to be something that can be either genetic or environmental (and certainly both in some cases) but its not something linked only to DTs or HMs or HM DTs.

Haha to be fair, I've been breeding for two years, lots of research before that (approximately three years of research) and I've gotten three viable batches (15 babies, 24 babies, and 22 babies each batch), I stopped breeding when it became too expensive, my friend takes the strongest fish based on a set of characteristics and I sell/give away the rest.

It's ok that we disagree. Maybe my own research is wrong, I guess I'll need to do some more, but in my experience DHMs and other long finned bettas are more prone to skin and fin conditions.

I can't give you the hard numbers, it's something that she doesn't want to share. Betta breeding is a competitive business, and everyone is looking for the "perfect" formula, so she keeps her trade secrets locked away. This includes the information on healthy vs unhealthy bettas, as someone else could steal her information and use it to produce the viable breed she is trying for. Sorry, I did ask her for the information, but she explained that it was for business purposes.

She's an expert, she doesn't post on forums. Lol (her words not mine!). Neither do I, as I receive all of my information from her. She has been breeding for close to 4 years now, I can tell you that I've seen definitely hundreds of babies come from her nursery, and probably hundreds more I haven't seen. Her betta gallery is beautiful. She actually has a imbellis male which is basically the cream of the crop of wildtypes. Usually around $60 per fish. Iridescent blue. I want it so much!!! Haha. She isn't a big time breeder and seller, mostly this is her hobby, she mainly sells the less desirable fish to chains.

Our focus is to reintroduce the stronger lines back into the local betta community, with fish that are hardier and more genetically viable. And maybe make some cool colour variations on the side. We aren't aiming for show bettas, and we don't breed for money, even if it is a business. I'm sorry if I can't provide much more than thoughts based on experience, I'm happy to answer any other questions to the best of my ability.

[Eugooglizer]

What tail types does your breeder friend work with? When you say she noticed and tracked the trend of double HMs "collapsing" and dying at very young ages, I'm assuming these were ones from her own lines she was monitoring?

[Emily]

Yes. Her gallery is different from the nursery, and from her personal collection. She breeds halfmoons specifically, she tries to get doublehalfmoons for collectors. I think she bred crowntails once, but halfmoons are more popular these days. She has experience with more tail types, but I didn't know her when she bred them. Though she said she started with VT's.

As for the lineage data, I don't know that information, as I said she won't tell me. I'm not trying to hide anything, this is her personal data, I know that she's doing it but I don't know the exact info. I'm assuming that its both from her own lines and from other lines she's brought in. She's smart enough to know to collect data from multiple sources. I know for a fact that she brings in multiple different fish from other breeders with supposedly strong lines, so I can only assume shes using them too. She rarely ever breeds her own fish together to prevent incest and weak genetics etc. Does that help?

[Eugooglizer]

Thank you for asking her about it, but it doesn't sound as if she's willing to share any information or answers to questions I'd be interested in, which is fine--it was more curiousity than anything I need to know myself.

[sugarselections]

I do have my bettas in Fluval Chi aquariums. I think I got my first one about 2.5 years ago. No tank is perfect, but they work very well for me and my fish.

I currently have four bettas. Two are in 6.6 gallon Chi and the other two are in 5 gallon Chi. Same footprint, but the 6.6 gallon is taller and the filter/light cube on the 6.6 gallon has a remote control to turn the lights off and on. On the 5 gallon there is a manual switch on the back of the cube. The filtration/current is not too much for a normal, healthy betta. The only fish who have problems with it are the guys who are seriously ill or dying. My betta with huge finnage (?super delta?) has trouble dealing with the waterfall flow but that's more because he has swim bladder problems than the fault of the tank.

If you're interested in learning more about Fluval Chi just let me know and I'll ramble on about them forever. I think they're worth the extra financial investment and if anything goes wrong with your equipment Fluval will generally send out replacement parts ASAP for free.

[Eugooglizer]

Gorgeous tanks sugarselections. I'd love to have one and make it a natural planted tank--they make such nice display tanks. Thats very good to know about the filtration and that they have such excellent customer service too, thank you.

[sugarselections]

My original betta tank (not a Chi) was a planted tank with real driftwood. I love the look of planted tanks but as I added more fish and tanks I just didn't want that extra maintenance.

One benefit of the Chi that I love and forgot to mention is that the filter box holds two separate types of media. There's a black foam pad and then your standard floss type of pad. I replace the floss pad as needed but never the foam so I don't have to worry about losing my good bacteria and ruining a perfectly cycled tank. I just take the foam pad out about once a month, rinse it in old tank water, and put it back into the filter cube.

In the past I had another Fluval tank, the View. It's gorgeous but I found the oval shape of the tank combined with strong filtration resulted in a whirlpool effect that was too much for my fish.

[Emily]

This is a really good set up, as far as beauty, natural plants, and tank size. You can see the heater in the back.

http://nippyfish.net/icecream/wp-conten ... /6-Gal.jpg

I prefer a ten gallon for any betta fish, sorority of male, but a 6 gallon isn't bad.

I know that walmart has tanks with under-gravel filters which are also really good for bettas, usually the 6 gallon version is better.

[Eugooglizer]

I have 3 planted tanks currently, low-tech so the growth is slower, but they're fillying out very nicely. I would consider a 10g much too small for a sorority, 20 gallons seem to work best, but I'm sure it varies, and I'm not a big fan of sororities anyway. Personally I don't like under-gravel filters since maintenance typically requires dismantling the whole tank, and they obviously aren't appropriate for planted tanks, but I know several of the betta tank kits have them.

[Happy Crabber]

Sugar- I'm so happy to see your tanks! They are awesome. I really like the look of the Fluval Chi. I also like the narrow rectangular one, forget what its called. But it has a big gap in the hood for the light, so I'm not sure if they''d jump out or not.

SO- does that lid work well for betas? Is it close enough to the filter that they can't jump out?
What heater do you use with those? Is the fluval one adjustable?

Are those in your room? It must sound amazing to have four waterfalls. Is the filter noisy?
Its really great to see how much decor you put in the tanks. Its hard to know how much is enough, or too much.

Emily- I've really been enjoying that Nippyfish site. Do you find that info to be pretty accurate?

NOW- can we talk accessories for a moment? I know I need filter, heater, thermometer, test kits, decor for hiding/resting in, what else? I see people mentioning vacuuming sub and scraping walls. Necessary? What else do I need?

And when you do water changes- are you just scooping water out with a large cup or something? For a 5-6 g tank you don't need any special pumpy thing for that, right?

Also- do you recommend cycling the tank using ammonia drops? I'm not sure how that whole ball gets rolling if you're not putting the fish in first. Or do you just put the fish in and keep a close eye on it for the first month or so?

On another note: not much progress on the 'convincing the husband' front. Here's our conversation from this morning....
Me: So how about we put a little tank on that shelf?
Him: No, we just got that shelf all organized and clear
Me: Yeah! So we now we can put a little tank there.
Him: but we just got it all cleaned off!
Me: I know! So...?

Maybe you had to be there....but my birthday is coming up...so now's my chance.... If not, I'm considering putting one in my classroom. Thoughts?