Crabs completely inactive after dominance display

[OBXPair]

Forgive me if this isn't a true emergency, but it feels like one. I don't know where else to post this, because it doesn't seem to fit any of the other categories exactly--and besides, it feels like our guys might be in immenent danger. So here goes (template answers below the next paragraph):

Our crabs were, I confess, an impulse purchase, and we know better now. Lesson learned. Despite that, we've felt responsible for them from the very beginning and are trying our best to give them a natural, healthy environment--plus we've actually grown attached to them. But we worry. A lot. Obsessively. Especially now, ssince we saw a scary dominance display (antenna prodding, walking-claw poking, and some very rough sumo-type shoving) two nights ago, after which one crab hid under the coconut shell and hasn't budged since (about 36 hours), and the other has snuggled up above ground, against the wall with the heater, and hasn't budged more than a few inches in either direction. Before this, they were both very active at night, but for the past two nights, nothing. We're telling ourselves they're just sleeping off the adrenaline rush, but the possibility on the other pole is that the first one is too scared to come out and will starve or thirst to death, and the second one is so traumatized that he's pining away. And we're also nervous about that first molt (assuming, of course, that they survive until then). Are we giving them what they need to molt successfully? And if one molts and the other doesn't, will the molter be bigger and more aggressive when he comes above ground? (Right now they're about the same size.) And...the questions continue, but I suppose the bottom line is this: Is it time to throw in the towel and put our little guys up for adoption? Do they need a more experienced (and calmer) caretaker?

1. What kind of substrate is used in your tank and how deep is it? Play sand mixed with salt water (aquarium salt, 1/2 tsp to 1 gallon distilled water), ranging from 3-4 inches. It started out at 6, but it's settled, and we don't want to disturb them right now to add more.

2. Do you have gauges in the tank to measure temperature and humidity? If so, where are they located and what temperature and humidity do they usually read? Two thermometer/hygrometer gauges, one next to the heater and the other at the far end, both close to the substrate. Right now the one by the heater reads 78F/90%, and the other reads 74F/88%, but regulating the heat and humidity has been a problem from day one. Temp can drop as low as 70F, humidity fluctuates from 70% or even lower (in which case we mist quickly, and it rises) to 90%. We struggle to keep it 80-85F on the side next to the heater, and to keep the humidity from 75-85%, but "struggle" is the operative word.

3. Is a heat source used in the tank? If so, what? ZooMed UTH on the outside of one end of the tank. It covers about the lower third of the end wall, half under and half above the substrate.

4. What types of water are available (fresh or salt) and how is the water treated (what brands of dechlorinator or salt mix and what ratio is used to mix it)? Two pools of fresh, one of salt. Bottled water, API aquarium salt mixed according to package directions (1/2 tsp per gallon of distilled water).

5. What kinds of food do you feed and how often is it replaced? One dish always has a protein-calcium mix we make using boiled egg, crushed eggshells, and lentils. The other three contain a rotating variety of fresh fruits, berries, and unseasoned meat. We replace food daily.

6. How long have you had the crab and what species is it, if known? About a month. Two pps.

7. Has your crab molted, and how long ago did it happen? No

8. What type of housing are the crabs kept in, what size is it and what kind of lid is on the housing? 10-gallon glass aquarium with plastic lid we can crack to lower humidity if necessary.

9. How many crabs are in the tank and about how large are they? 2 crabs with 2- to 3-inch shells.

10. How many extra shells are usually kept in the tank, if any? 9 extra shells, ranging from just right (we think) to two that are a little too large (we think). Some of the ones we think are just right may actually be too small. We're planning to replace them with slightly larger ones.

11. Have there been any fumes or chemicals near the crabitat recently? No

12. How often do you clean the tank and how? We've completely changed the substrate twice because we realized we hadn't gotten it right the first two times. Both times we simply emptied the tank, washed it with plain water, and dried it with paper towels. Dipped all furniture, dishes, and shells in boiling water. No cleaners.

13. Are sponges used in the water dish? If so, how are they cleaned? No sponges.

14. Has anything new been added to your crabitat recently? Only shells for the past two days. For the first couple of weeks we changed or added decorations daily, thinking that would be stimulating to the crabs, but we stopped for fear that it was merely unsettling to them.

15. Is there any other information you would like to share that might be helpful (anything that is regularly part of your crab care, playtime, bathing, etc.)? Since the dominance display, we've left them alone, not touching or moving them or changing anything in the tank except for adding spare shells.

16. Please describe the emergency situation in detail. See above. Bottome line: Should we keep them? Or let them go?

[KellyCrabbieLove]

Most salts are 1/2 cup to a gallon so you should check that.

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[KellyCrabbieLove]

You can insulate the tank where the uth is to warm things up in there.

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[OBXPair]

Thanks, Kelly. I checked the salt carton, and it does indeed say, "Add 1/2 rounded teaspoon for every U.S. gallon (4 L) of water." About the insulator for the heater: I worry about heating it up too much more, since it rose above 90F one time and we're not around constantly to monitor it. I don't want to be out for a few hours and come home to baked crabs.

My original question, in a nutshell, is: Is this sudden inactivity a result of the dominance display?

Actually, my ultimate question is: To you experienced crab-keepers, does it sound like my family is just not cut out for this? I don't want to give up to soon--but I don't want to keep trying at the expense of the crabs' well-being or even their lives.

Related questions: Assuming the crabs get acive again, are these dominance displays going to get worse? Are shell fights likely? Will such fights kill them or maim them horribly? (I'm really not up to that.) Or are they dying now, making the fighting question moot? Are they pining away for some reason? Traumatized? Why aren't they eating? Or drinking? Or moving around at night? Why are they so STILL?

[wodesorel]

I think you sound like a new crab owner.

I also think your crabs are new, and this is normal. Have you read about Post Purchase Syndrome? All crabs come from the wild and have to adapt to captivity. It's a hard thing for them to do, and even under the best circumstances not all are going to survive. http://hermitcrabassociation.com/phpBB/ ... 29#p852629

You may also want to read over the care guide. It just got updated today.
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=92457&p=852153#p852153

That said, there's a few things that jump out.

If your crabs are 3 inches, then you need at least 10 inches of substrate for safe molts. They sound pretty big to be in a 10 gallon, but they should be okay for now. It's probably why they fought, because they're a bit crowded. For sure, get them out and get another bag of sand in there to up the depth so when they do molt they are safe. It needs to be three to four times deeper then they are big for them to stand a chance or their caves may collapse.

Make sure to seal the tank up pretty well to hold humidity in. Is the substrate moist enough? If it's too dry that will affect the humidity levels. The ZooMeds often aren't warm enough, and the pad you have is too small to do anything. If you keep with them you may want to look into ordering a Ultratherm. Flukers can be found in stores and I've had great luck with them. One of the 11x11 on the back would heat your 10 gallon toasty.

Wrong type of salt - you have freshwater aquarium salt. What they need is a saltwater mix for marine fish. Those have over 70 different elements (versus just a handful in the freshwater salt) and are mixed at 1/2 cup per gallon to match ocean water almost perfectly.

For right now, keeping their stress levels low is key. Molting for the first time in captivity can be deadly. That flurry of activity you see after moving things or baths is not good - it's actually them freaking out. A healthy crab should be plunked in one spot or slowly plodding around.

[OBXPair]

Thank you, wodesorel! Okay, I can order the heater you recommend, but will it heat it up too much? As I said, even the ZooMed has gotten it up to 90F. I keep reading different things: keep it at 75; no, pps need it at 85; no, 85 is too hot; it's okay to have a variance across the tank; try to keep the temp constant across the tank...I'm so confused!!

Good to know I have the wrong kind of salt. This is easily corrected...but I've also read that pps do fine with only fresh water. True or false?

Eventually I can get them a new, bigger tank and put it 10 inches of substrate (10 inches? Why do I keep reading six?), but frankly, I'm out of crab money for a while. And if I just add more substrate to deepen what's there, it will come too close to the lid. (Jeff has already proven able to lift the lid, and we have two dogs, one of whom will definitely eat him if he escapes.) How long do you think I can reasonably keep them where they are?

From what you've said, their inactivity is healthier than the scurrying about we saw earlier, so I'm a little more hopeful now. Also, my daughter got up in the wee hours and checked on them, and said Jerry had left his coconut hideaway and was eating from the protein-calcium dish. But I'm still confused. (Please see above. )

[megmaholm]

Thank you, wodesorel! Okay, I can order the heater you recommend, but will it heat it up too much? As I said, even the ZooMed has gotten it up to 90F. I keep reading different things: keep it at 75; no, pps need it at 85; no, 85 is too hot; it's okay to have a variance across the tank; try to keep the temp constant across the tank...I'm so confused!!

Good to know I have the wrong kind of salt. This is easily corrected...but I've also read that pps do fine with only fresh water. True or false?

Eventually I can get them a new, bigger tank and put it 10 inches of substrate (10 inches? Why do I keep reading six?), but frankly, I'm out of crab money for a while. And if I just add more substrate to deepen what's there, it will come too close to the lid. (Jeff has already proven able to lift the lid, and we have two dogs, one of whom will definitely eat him if he escapes.) How long do you think I can reasonably keep them where they are?

From what you've said, their inactivity is healthier than the scurrying about we saw earlier, so I'm a little more hopeful now. Also, my daughter got up in the wee hours and checked on them, and said Jerry had left his coconut hideaway and was eating from the protein-calcium dish. But I'm still confused. (Please see above. )

If your tank temp gets to 90 and is stable with the ZooMed, no need to get a different one. If you go with the Ultratherm that Wode suggested, when insulated the glass that it's attached to can easily hit 110 degrees - that's what mine does, but the overall tank temp stays in the low to mid 80s. It's safe. I don't know about ZooMed heaters, but you can buy an inexpensive lamp dimmer to use with an Ultratherm and tweak the temps that way.

As far as safe temperature, 75 is the lowest they can safely/comfortably be at. PPs prefer close to 80, and 85 is safe and some people see more activity with temps close to that. Even 90 is okay as long as they have cooler spots they can get to.

False about PPs only needing fresh water. All land hermit crabs need access to marine grade saltwater.

The minimum recommended substrate depth is 6", but that's for smaller crabs. The big guys need 9-10" to safely molt. Do you have pics of your crabbies? All crabs grow at different rates so it's hard to say for sure how long your guys can stay in the 10 gallon.

[KellyCrabbieLove]

When I was new I was sitting in front of my 55 thinking maybe I was in over my head, hopeless, maybe I should just give up, that I shouldn't keep them since I couldn't provide what I felt was the best because of financial reasons. Now I have a huge tank, huge colony and the satisfaction that they are happy and healthy and I still spoil them with special foods. Sometimes it takes a bit to really get in the groove and get comfortable with how things are and need to be. It gets easier. Even those that have had their crabs for years and years are always changing things up and doing improvements. We are never truly happy with our tanks. For example I still want to add some blues and yellows in with plants and I was to figure out a ether ramp system for my pools and figure out a way to better filter my salt water pool. Always a work in progress. It is all a learning experience and once you get the basics down the rest is cake.

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[OBXPair]

Thanks, Kelly, for the reassurance. And thanks, Meg, for the info. Okay, I'll try to boost the temp to a constant 85 with the heater I've got (can probably do that by using the daytime lights and keeping the lid tight, not worrying too much about high humidity since everything in there is, after all, sterile and shouldn't breed mold or bacteria). If I can't, I'll get a better heater.

Will get the right salt tomorrow and change the salt water.

You asked about pics, so here's one--but I'm not sure what you can tell about size by this. The brown shell is about 3 inches from base to point, and the blue shell is about 2 inches in diameter. Both are the shells they came in, and although they've both showed interest in a slightly larger, conical shell in the tank, they haven't switched. (Actually, that conical shell was what instigated the dominance display.)

[Kleinerhejhog]

I saw that you use bottled water. I think you'll find that using a good dechlorinater like Seachem Prime in regular tap water will be much less expensive over time. Plus, most bottled waters have some sort of additives, which may not be good for crabs. I'm not even sure about the ones that say "100% Spring Water", what does that really mean.

When I was new I was sitting in front of my 55 thinking maybe I was in over my head, hopeless, maybe I should just give up, that I shouldn't keep them since I couldn't provide what I felt was the best because of financial reasons.

Haha, this is exactly how I felt the first two weeks, and how I feel right this minute about my freshwater aquarium...

[OBXPair]

I saw that you use bottled water. I think you'll find that using a good dechlorinater like Seachem Prime in regular tap water will be much less expensive over time. Plus, most bottled waters have some sort of additives, which may not be good for crabs. I'm not even sure about the ones that say "100% Spring Water", what does that really mean.

Good point; thanks for the input.

[soilentgringa]

Wode and Kelly both said it all pretty much. Just be sure to keep the heater above the substrate line so you don't heat the sand and potentially cook a crab.

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[OBXPair]

Wode and Kelly both said it all pretty much. Just be sure to keep the heater above the substrate line so you don't heat the sand and potentially cook a crab.

Okay, this is a caution I haven't read (and I've done a LOT of reading over the past three weeks). So the heater needs to be over the substrate line? I can do that... (feeling right now)

[wodesorel]

No, that doesn't happen! Mine covers the entire back from top to bottom. However, heating the sand causes it to dry out faster, which some people don't want to have to mess with. It takes more maintenance to have one that covers the sub, but it does help humidity levels.

[crabbienewb]

unrelated to your post, but are you in the outer banks? I'm in jacksonville and have tons of extra crab stuff and some extra shells that would probably fit them if you happen to come to jacksonville ever. and a lot of extra natural foods, that i am literally never going to be able to get through the amount i have.