Table salt might be safe?

[JediMasterThrash]

----------Note that this is a research-oriented thread, not to be taken as an announcement of fact----------This is in reference to this thread on the HCA:http://hermitcrabassociation.com/phpBB/ ... #552083The "iodine in table salt" myth is something that's been with us on-line crabbers since the beginning of time, as far as I can tell. It was prevalent on all crab websites and care sheets, and I just copied it onto mine assuming it was fact, since in all the years I've been on-line, nobody has questioned it.Until now, this thread was the first I heard of questioning the iodine in table salt. So I did some research.As with all myths revolving around water (such as stress coat), this one started in reef aquarium circles. However, it has been disproved as a myth. Iodine is in fact necessary for crustaceans in order to molt, and it's found naturally in seaweed.Some crab websites/care sheets are now specifying that it's the "man-made iodine" that is bad for crabs. The "man-made" iodine in table salt is Potassium Iodide (KI), which is actually one of the best ways to get I- ions. So that is a myth as well.So I checked out the anti-caking agents. There is no primary source of information on anti-caking agents being bad for crustaceans. Every entry on a crab website is copied from another crab website, it's unclear who started that myth either.I looked up all the common anti-caking agents in the exotoxicity database, and none of them show up as harmful to crustaceans.Best I can tell, table salt is actualy safe, even for use in making saltwater (except that it lacks the trace minerals). The concensus seems to be that the sea-salt manufactures propagated the myth that table-salt is bad to make you pay more for their boxed sea salt. Kind of like you you need "activated" carbon for your filters because it's "better" than non-activated carbon.I'm very glad this was brought up, I've learned something today.I should do a revision of the care sheets this year, since I have been doing it every 2 years, and the last time was in 2006. I'll definitely remove the table salt bit in the next revision.

[Crabby Abby]

With all due respect, I should like to think that the reasoning for such a vast amount of people to support the restriction of man-made iodine and anti-caking agents goes deeper than it having been started by sea-salt manufacturers for increased sales, especially since the crabbing community has a vast amount of knowledgeable crabbers who conduct research to support or disprove things like this.I'm not saying this theory is or isn't accurate and I can attest that it is a possibility bc salt manufacturers have been known to exaggerate the minerals and benefits of their products in their advertising so I wouldn't put it past them but I do believe we should research it more deeply before we embrace it for our hermies' sake.Gale, in regard to the Cheez-its while it is true that an occasional treat won't hurt them they also contain a preservative called TBHQ, yeast and color additives, all of which are discouraged for hermie consumption.

[JediMasterThrash]

Just to clarify my stance, FYI, I've just identified that table salt is a myth, but I still won't say 100% whether it's good or bad yet. At the moment, I can't find any evidence that it's bad. But as I go with these things, I post it on a couple forums, and see if anyone can provide any primary sources of information on the subject. So if no sources of information show up in the next few weeks proving that table salt is bad, then I'll call the myth debunked. But until then, it's still up in the air. Every once in a while, you just gotta re-look at something you take for granted. It's a good exercise.

[hermitcrabaddiction]

I think CSj did an article on the anti-caking agents in table salt. They've redone the site and I can't find it at the moment. Definately contact Sue from Coenobita.I think there needs to be more research done for sure. I'm with Crabby Abby on this. Maufactuers don't list every ingredient. There could be more in there then what they are saying. Crustaceans may need iodine but it could also become harmful if given to much, as with anything else.

[JediMasterThrash]

It is true that table salt contains a lot of iodine. A lot even for human needs. It was added to prevent goiter for people who live in areas where the soil contains no iodine (so they wouldn't get it naturally from foods).http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/question367.htmNote that I'm not saying we should use switch to using table salt to make saltwater. Even if it "might" be safe, it would lack other minerals. I have a previous post that talks about how everything is harmful in big enough quantities. The question is about how much is too much.Right now, the crab community is paranoid about table salt. We think that even a little bit added to crackers is enough to kill our hermits.I just question that. If it turns out to be "safe", that would just mean that we don't need to avoid things that include salt like the plague.Obviously everything is better when it's all-natural and organic. Any artificial preservatives and agents aren't going to be good, but as before, the question is always in the quantities.A form of cyanide is actually used as an anti-caking agent for some foods. But before we cry out in terror, you have to understand that the quanity well below FDA food grade limits. I mean you can eat a piece of dirt and it's probably got radioactive isotopes and poisonous chemicals in it. But it's not going to kill you because everything is in trace quantities. The potassium in bananas has a high concentration of the K-14 radioactive isotope. But you don't hear too much about banana induced cancer.I definitely would like to discuss things like this with Sue, but she never responds to my PMs or e-mails.

[Willow]

FWIW, when I first started crabbing, I offered my hermies salt water made with regular Morton's table salt. It was really cloudy, and had that metallic smell I always associate with table salt (is it the iodine? I dunno). And the crabbies wouldn't touch it. Another brand of table salt might make better salt water, but I can tell you that iodized Morton's is not a big hit with the herms. I really don't think relying on table salt for salt water would be a good idea. API Aquarium Salt is cheaper than table salt, anyway.But I also don't think people should freak out about salt as a minor ingredient in prepared foods. I feed my hermies all kinds of stuff. I'll give them a spoonful of my oatmeal, prepared the way I like it---with dried fruit, maple syrup, brown sugar, and milk. I've fed them other "not safe for hermies" foods, and they're all doing fine. Variety is the key. As long as they're getting a varied, nutritious diet, they'll be fine, even if they get some table salt or refined sugar every now and then.

[KittyCaller]

I've never thought occasional exposure to table salt is deadly. I just think that because it's easy to avoid, why shouldn't I?

[JediMasterThrash]

Here's a link to the CSJ copy of the thread:http://crabstreetjournal.com/xoops/modu ... forum=7The CSJ article on anti-caking agents doesn't actually say anything about the ingredients being good or bad, it just lists what they are.Calcium silicate is added to table salt, but it doesn't appear the calcium silicate poses any health risk from its use as a food additive.In fact, that OSHA website lists two studies:quote:Effects on Animals: No adverse effects of non-fibrous calcium silicate were identified. During a chronic inhalation study, rats were exposed...Over the 31 months of the experiment, no statistically significant adverse effects attributable to the calcium silicate were observed. quote:Effects on Humans: No information was found in the literature on the health effects associated with exposure to synthetic calcium silicate. A manufacturer of calcium silicate reported that exposure may irritate the respiratory tract. http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelin ... on.htmlThe only risk for calcium silicate is if it's in a dust-state, due to respiratory hazards associated with all fine dust particles (such as would happen if it was involved in a fire, or in a plant that processes calcium silicate in its pure form). And there are numerous substances that are safe until burned (and the resulting gasses become poisonous, but those gases are a result of chemical reactions with oxygen, and not the compound itself) or turned into airborne dust (due to respiratory problems). But the substances are safe in solid or liquid form.And on to sodium and chloride, yes, NaCl contains sodium and chloride atoms, but it contains the chemical structure sodium chloride, which is not harmful, and is a chrystal lattice of Na+and Cl- ions. Chlorine gas is Cl2 (which is poisonous), which has completely different properties from Cl- (which is abundant in nature and necessary for life). And metallic sodium is Na (which is not poisonous, but is highly reactive with water), which has different properties from Na- dissolved in water (which again, is necessary for life, including "regulation of blood and body fluids, transmission of nerve impulses, heart activity, and certain metabolic functions".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorineht ... /SodiumAnd on top of that, The NaCl in table salt is the same NaCl that's disolved in sea water. In fact, sea water is 1.9% chlorine and 1.0% sodium by mass.As an aside, I found this interesting article that shows that in order for plants to actually "live/thrive" in saltwater, a balance of different salts is required, and that our blood and seawater create this necessary balance.http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/1/4/363.pdfAlso, there's no information that demonstrates any adverse affects of potassium iodide.In fact, sea water should have 390mg/L of potassium and 0.060 mg/L of iodide according to the Natural Sea Water (NSW) average values.http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/seasal ... 12003b.htm

[cami]

quote:Calcium silicate is added to table salt, but it doesn't appear the calcium silicate poses any health risk from its use as a food additive.In fact, that OSHA website lists two studies:quote:Effects on Animals: No adverse effects of non-fibrous calcium silicate were identified. During a chronic inhalation study, rats were exposed...Over the 31 months of the experiment, no statistically significant adverse effects attributable to the calcium silicate were observed. quote:Effects on Humans: No information was found in the literature on the health effects associated with exposure to synthetic calcium silicate. A manufacturer of calcium silicate reported that exposure may irritate the respiratory tract. Jedi--first of all, I have to stop my head from spinning after trying to take all this information in! That said, I have to tell you that all this makes me think of diatomaceous earth diatomaceous earth wikipedia which is what I use for pest control (ie. ants) around my house. It is a non-poisonous alternative to insecticides. However, it is deadly to insects. The OSHA studies you quoted states it is not harmful to animals (just like diatomaceous earth is not harmful to animals), but I would question its effect on hermit crabs--for example, I would never expose my hermit crabs to diatomaceous earth--that stuff will kill cockroaches without any toxins, so I can imagine what it might do to my hermies. I may be all wrong in my logic, but I just thought I'd throw it out there as a comparison to consider.I am in way over my head in all this, so be nice with your response!

[JediMasterThrash]

You are correct, calcium silicate is an insecticide. But I can't find any info on it being toxic to crustaceans. Just because it's harmful to insects doesn't inply it's harmful to all arthropods. Crustacea and Hexapoda are different subphylums.I'll keep searching though. You never know.

[cami]

Jedi--thanks for responding!This statement in the wikipedia link for diatomaceous earth is especially what triggered my red flag: "The fine powder absorbs lipids from the cuticle, the waxy outer layer of insects' exoskeletons, causing them to dehydrate. Arthropods die as a result of the water pressure deficiency, based on Fick's law of diffusion."The main active ingredient in my bag of diatomaceous earth is silicon dioxide. I have no idea how that chemical composition/action compares with that of calcium silicate, other than warnings that niether should be inhaled in powder form (by humans or animals). I don't know if calcium silicate would have a similar action on exoskeletons as silicon dioxide does. And I'm not even sure if the exoskeleton of isects are similar enough to that of hermit crabs that it would have the same detrimental affect on a hermit crab as it does on an insect. But it was enough to get me thinking...OK, Jedi--see what happens when you start getting me thinking?! lol

[JediMasterThrash]

I think the difference is that it's being ingested in minute quantities, rather than being applied (Spray/powder) to the exo. Once ingested, it shouldn't be able to have any of the described affects.