Floride?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:36 pm

Kerie I came across an interesting post about well water. The anti-polutant used apparently is floride instead of chlorine. (at least to the knowledge of the poster) The thread remains inconclusive, and I was wondering if you have information about floride? Here is the link to the Archive: Well Water

Do you have an opinion on use of Well water? I guess it can vary so drastically by location?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:09 pm

I don't like what I've read of too much fluoride. Apparently it can be quite toxic. For instance:

The diagnosis of skeletal fluorosis, until recent years, was made with the help of radiographs which reveal interosseous membrane calcification, enhanced bone density, and bone mass. These are, however, late characteristics of the disease. Recognizing the disease at such late stages does not help prevention. The disease is usually irreversible by then.

http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C627523.html

After doing even more digging, I think fluoride is probably well avoided whenever possible for crabs. The form found in use in toothpastes and drinking water is apparently sodium fluoride:

Sodium fluoride is a crystalline mineral once widely used in the United States for control of larvae and crawling insects in homes, barns, warehouses, and other storage areas. It is highly toxic to all plant and animal life. The only remaining use permitted is for wood treatement.
Ref: Recognition and Management of Pesticide Poisonings, 5th Edition,
The Office of Pesticide Programs, US EPA. Chapter 8
http://www.epa.gov/oppfead1/safety/heal ... Chap08.pdf

http://www.fluorideaction.org/pesticide ... e-page.htm

There's an extensive article with listed references here:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/fluoride.htm

My opinion? I don't like it. Yet another reason I use only distilled water for my crabs' water sources.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:25 pm

So would it be safe to assume that wells that are fluoridated are not to be utilized as drinking water for crabs right? I am still digging, I found reference to wells here in southern Alberta that use fluoride to reduce the effects of hard water sediment. We no longer fluoridate our drinking water coming from municipal reservoirs though.

edit-sorry I meant to also ask if you know whether there is a way to neutrilize fluoradated water?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:15 pm

Chestersmom wrote: I meant to also ask if you know whether there is a way to neutrilize fluoradated water?

That's a real good question. I'll ask a couple of scientists I know what they think of it.

If people have been using well water consistently for a long time for their crabs, it may not be the end of the world. It would make an interesting long-term study for certain.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:51 pm

This is going to be a major headache for us to sort out I think. Here's one answer, from Tardigrade:

First of all, EDTA wouldn't work. It neutralizes only positively-charged, multi-valent metals, like magnesium, lead, cadmdium, etc. Not fluoride, which is mono-valent, negatively-charged, and not a metal.

As for the toxicity of fluorides, I really don't know. It depends on what the particular fluoride is, what it gets converted to with the dechlor agent (probably inorganic fluoride ion), if you use that, and what concentration it is at. Fluoride in toothpaste can be poisonous, but really only in amounts thousands of times higher than what is in toothpaste or water. And by that, I mean poisonous to humans. I haven't a clue about how much fluoride crabs can withstand. I would suspect though, that they would be fine with the amounts used for killing germs, but I could be wrong.

You could maybe check ToxNet for fluoride toxicity in invertebrates.

Then I found a long article about fluoride toxicity in the environment, including information on invertebrates and marine organisms:

http://www.fluoridealert.org/groth-1975.htm

Effects on Aquatic Animals

Short-term fluoride toxicity data are available for a number of invertebrate species, the majority of them marine varieties. Water fleas are killed or immobilized by concentrations of various fluoride compounds ranging from 5 to 500 ppm (45) Lobsters are not harmed by 5 ppm fluoride. (46) Mussels may be killed by 1.4 to 7.2 ppm, (42) and concentrations of 20 ppm or higher for extended periods have been shown to be toxic or lethal to oysters, two species of crabs, and a sand shrimp, but not to two types of prawns. (47) More significant than the lethal effects of high concentrations, however, is the marked ability demonstrated by almost all species studied in these investigations to accumulate substantial bodily burdens of fluoride. Even animals kept in sea water containing only 1 ppm fluoride had bodily concentrations of from 100 to 300 ppm (48) The entry of fluoride into food chains through bioconcentration in aquatic invertebrates is a subject in need of much more careful research.

Studies of the effects of fluoride on fish are far more numerous than for any other form of aquatic life . (49)

Short-term lethal effects may occur at concentrations as low as 3 ppm in sensitive species (for example, rainbow trout), while other fish are not damaged until fluoride levels reach 100 ppm Water temperature, hardness, chlorinity, and other environmental factors, as well as the age and physiological state of the fish, can influence the toxicity of a given concentration of fluoride. (50)

Sublethal concentrations may have adverse effects on fish behavior or reproduction, which could be ecologically significant. Research findings are few and not confirmed, but trout eggs seem to be delayed in development and hatching by 1.5 ppm fluoride. (51)

Fish are important food-chain organisms, and the ability of many fish, like many other vertebrates, to accumulate elevated fluoride levels in their skeletons (52) can introduce the contaminant into the diet of fish-eating predators. Levels of 550 to 6,800 ppm have been reported in bones of ocean fish, and 400 to 1,600 ppm in trout from a naturally high-fluoride stream in Yellowstone National Park. Such accumulation might pose a hazard to animals that eat whole fish.

Data on other aquatic vertebrates which may be exposed to fluoride are sparse. Frogs were killed in one week by 900 ppm fluoride, (53) and decreased red and white blood cell counts were observed in frogs kept in fluoride concentrations of 5 to 300 ppm (54) There have also been indications that sublethal fluoride concentrations may adversely affect amphibian reproductive cycles. (55) Frog eggs were retarded in development but hatched prematurely in 1 ppm fluoride in well water, higher concentrations (13 to 450 ppm) had the same effects on toad eggs, and metamorphosis in tadpoles was significantly delayed by fluoride at 0 5 and 4.5ppm. (56)

Most research on the effects of fluoride on aquatic organisms dates back to the early 1960s or before, and more definitive studies are required on the potential hazards suggested here. There is also a pressing need to examine the potential impact of chronic, low-level bioaccumulation of fluoride on predatory animals higher in aquatic-based food chains. As is the case with fluoride air pollution, the logic of ecosystem energy and nutrient flow patterns suggests that species at the highest levels of a food chain are likely to bear the greatest risk of harm, but virtually no effort has been made to look for such damage. If fluoride has had such adverse effects on aquatic wildlife, they have thus far been too subtle to attract attention. In the absence of any substantive research data, it would be unwise to assume that no risks exist.

In other words, nobody knows the long-term effects, but that it appears crustacea bioaccumulate the inorganic form from pollution.

A good place to start inquiring is to find out what the ppm of fluoride in the water sources in question is.

I'm also waiting to hear back from the chemist I know.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:01 pm

Here's a link to the CDC's page on fluoride:

http://www.cdc.gov/oralhealth/waterfluo ... faqs.htm#9

Apparently it's very difficult to remove from water once it's in there.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:33 pm

From yet another site:

Invertebrates
The crabs Portunus depurator, Cancer pagurus and Carcinus maenas were subjected to NaF in 90 day experiments. The fluoride concentrations used were 1.0, 2.4, 10, and 30 mg/L. No deaths occurred under these conditions. The mussel, Mytilus edulis showed no lethal effects in 42 days at 2.4 mg/L F , 75% mortality in 30 days and 100% mortality in 36 days at 10 mg/L fluoride, and 75% mortality in 14 days and 100% mortality in 21 days at 30 mg/L fluoride (Wright and Davidson, 1975). The prawn, Penaeus indicus, and the crab, Tylodisplax blephariskios, were subjected to 5.5 mg/L fluoride, as NaF, for 113 days. The prawns showed increased body weight and survival over the controls while the crabs showed no effect. In 68 day experiments at 5.9 mg/L fluoride, as NaF, there was no effect on growth or survival in either the crabs or the prawns (Hemens et al., 1975). The prawns Penaeus indicus and P. monodon were tested for 96 hours at 20Â°C in 10 and 100 mg/L fluoride, as NaF. No mortality was noted at either fluoride level (Hemens and Warwick, 1972). The crab, Tylodisplax blephariskios, shrimp, Palaemon pacificus, and prawn, Penaeus indicus were subjected to 52 mg/L fluoride, as NaF, for 72 days at 25Â°C. The survival percentage, compared to controls at 1 mg/L fluoride, was 32% for the crabs, 71% for the shrimp and 100% for the prawns (Hemens and Warwick, 1972).

The crab, Callinectes sapidus, showed a 4.5% reduction in growth per moult when subjected to 20 mg/L fluoride, as NaF (Moore, 1971). The shrimp, Palaemon pacificus, suffered 23 to 45% mortality in a 72 day experiment when subjected to 52 mg/L fluoride and oysters showed 100% mortality in 60 days when immersed in 32 to 128 mg/L fluoride (Connell and Miller, 1984).

http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/wat/wq/BCguide ... oo-04.html

There's a lot more information there on fluoride in general, but this was the most immediately pertinent.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:49 pm

Yes, floride has potential to cause imbalance, it seems that it will not naturally disburse from water or ground once introduced. While we may not be overly concerned about the reproductive impact it has on our captive hermits, it certainly bears watching in terms of toxic reaction...PHPHPHtt...I have to let out a breath...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:48 pm

Good gravy!!!

I think they add small amounts of fluoride to our tap water here! In fact, I know when I lived in Pennsylvania, they added enough fluoride to the tap water, and we did not have to give my son additiona fluoride tablets. I thought a good many water treament plants added the stuff to our water! I am wrong?

I think I need to right a book on how to kill a crab ~ it appears I have made every mistake there is!!! [smilie=headshake.gif]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:05 pm

There isn't any evidence one way or another that it will kill LHCs. It just doesn't look very good as an environmental pollutant. For instance, lobster weren't effected at 5 ppm. It looks like most city water levels would be between .6 and 2 ppm.

What does it mean? I really don't know for certain. Crabs aren't lobsters, they're just related to them.

Many, many crabbers use dechlorinated tap water, which in the US will be fluoridated. If someone like Carol of Crabworks, with her 30 year captive jumbos has been using it all this time, then it may not be something to worry about. I don't know what her water source is, just using her as an example of what to look at when making a judgment about something like this. Who here has had crabs for 2 or more years on city water? What kind of problems, if any, have they had with mysterious deaths and bad molts?

Nobody should panic about this. Just consider carefully your options. Call your water company and find out what your fluoride levels in the water are.

If you can, I recommend switching to distilled water. You can always add a couple of grains of ocean water mix to the fresh water source to make it taste less inert.

But since the information is so sketchy, there's no reason to jump to conclusions and assume that fluoride is going to kill your crabs.

As I always say, when in doubt, leave it out. But if you've had crabs for several years, and been giving them fluoridated water with no ill effects, it's probably not that dangerous.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:08 pm

Julia_Crab wrote:If people have been using well water consistently for a long time for their crabs, it may not be the end of the world. It would make an interesting long-term study for certain.

I have been using well water for over a year. It is filtered through a Pur faucet mount. I have had no problems with the water thus far.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:21 pm

Sorry, I edited my comment above! My thoughts were following what I was thinking in my head! It was not meant to imply there was any threat...I agree with the presented analysis of the situation!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:24 pm

Not you, Sue. On thinking about the discussion, I was worried that people were going to freak out and panic about offering dechlorinated tap water.

I just didn't want to be responsible for any stampedes.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:43 pm

Here's the final word on fluoride, from the chemist:

First, it's extremely doubtful that anyone would add fluorides to a well. It's not even slightly similar to the chlorinating agents used to kill organisms in drinking water.

While fluorides are toxic in higher concentrations, the amount used to strengthen tooth enamel is well below that level. So city water that is fluoridated won't be a problem.

There are some wells (mainly in Texas and possibly other parts of the mid-west, I seem to recall) that have a high natural level of fluoride ions. They cause children who drink it to have very hard but sometimes deformed teeth, and with holes in the enamel. That was discovered in the fifties so I doubt that anyone still gets exposed to that much.