Turkey Baster used on Mites

[Guest]

Read this thread, posted about a month ago.

Honestly, Hermit-crabs.com has not been updated in a bit, as Christa has had many things to do in the last few months.

It was sort of unnofficially decided that stress-coat would not be recommended for use, and that the new bathing standard for those who do bathe on a schedule, would be no more then once every two weeks.

[Guest]

This is a direct quote from the Crab Street Journal:

http://www.crabstreetjournal.com/caresh ... thing.html
Hermit-Crabs.com also recommends using Stress Coat:

http://www.hermit-crabs.com/care.html

Where are you getting your information from that it is bad for them? Can you point me to some research that says that's a no-no? I've did quite a bit of online research regarding hermit crabs and everything I've read recommends using Stress Coat w/ Aloe. However, I'm willing to keep an open mind if you can point me in the direction of reputable websites that oppose using it.

I don't know how old that info is on CSJ, and to be honest, I don't visit there very often. I don't know if I can point you to the specific thread around here, but I will try to find it. There were links to scientific articles about Aloe and also about putting a slime coat on a crabs gills.
I also know that some of the info on Christa's site hasn't been updated in a while. There are many pseudo-scientists around here and many educated people. A lot of research is done before we change the information that we provide.

Providing a salt water dish deep enough for the largest one to submerge itself in is not feasible in our tank since the surface area is limited and the largest one is a LOT bigger than our smallest one. It would have to be a really deep dish. I think running the risk of one of them drowning would be far worse than actively bathing them once a week. If I had more room for them then that would be the ideal thing but I have to work with what I have I'm afraid. I'll keep that in mind though should I ever get a bigger tank. Thanks for the suggestion.

I strongly disagree with you about the risks. You are putting those Straws at much greater risk by withholding saltwater from them. If you do not have the tank space for an appropriate saltwater dish, then you do not have a tank big enough for Strawberry crabs. I have Straws and a large saltwater pool, and I will frequently see one of them walking around on the bottom, for as long as 30 minutes at a time. If you put some shells or rocks, or hang a piece of net down in, there is no way they will drown. And, just for the record, I also see my other species of crabs taking a dip, just not as often.

As far as using the water from our fish tanks goes I've been bathing my hermit crabs in fish tank water since 1979. It never seemed to have any harmful effects on them that I ever noticed. Shouldn't the added Stress Coat take out anything that would be harmful in the fish tank water too? It removes chlorine, chloramines and heavy metals. However, I always had PP crabs before and these are the first strawberries I have ever owned so I will follow your advice and bathe them only in marine salt dechlorinated tap water.

Thanks.

Update: No mites on Friday's bath.

I'm glad to hear you are winning the mite battle!

It was sort of unnofficially decided that stress-coat would not be recommended for use, and that the new bathing standard for those who do bathe on a schedule, would be no more then once every two weeks.

There's nothing unofficial about bathing Strawberry crabs. If you do a search around here, the only recommendation you will find is to be extremely hands off with these crabs. They stress easily and are considered very delicate. Many of the experienced crabbers around here have stopped trying to keep Straws at all. As I said above, withholding saltwater from Strawberry crabs is tantamount to a death sentence. In the native environment, they are the species that spends the most time at the ocean, or in the shallow water at the beaches. I'll try to find the link to this information as well.

[Guest]

Here's a couple links:

Link One

Link Two

Link Three


And, just in case this thread would disappear from the auto-pruner or something, this quote is from Link Three:

i recieved this article from my yahoo group, maybe others have read it. it is quite long, and i am sorry for that. however, the facts it points out is quite interesting so maybe the reading will seem shorter

Many veteran and novice crabbers alike engage in the practice of
actively bathing their hermit crabs frequently, some as often as once
or twice per week. Most adopt this practice because it is printed on
care sheets (like the one FMR puts out), they hear about it from
other crabbers in online forums, or read it in a hermit crab care
book. The idea behind bathing is that hermit crabs as a genus were
once aquatic animals that have adapted to terrestrial life. The
thought is that regular bathing has the benefits of helping them keep
their gills moist, keeping the crabs well hydrated and cleaning out
their shells of dirt, debris and feces.

Many have also adopted the practice of adding Stress Coat to the bath
water for the moisturizing benefits of the aloe contained in it and
the thought that it will help condition their exoskeleton and replace
some of the natural oils and slime coating they may have in the wild.
This can be easily accomplished by offering an appropriate and varied
diet, including some whole fish (like sardines in spring water or
other fish with skin intact, just be leary of fish known to have
higher mercury levels, or fish that has been processed or cooked).
Commercial diets like FMR also provide for essential oils. Vertebrate
feces, such as that from a tortoise, can also be beneficial in
providing additional nutriment in the form of undigested plan matter,
animal proteins sloughed off from the GI tract and beneficial
bacteria found in their digestive tract. One caveat here is to use
only feces from a healthy animal that has been screened for
parasites; though the gastric mill of the crabs likely provides
adequate defense to most common parasites. (Adapted from Greenway
2003, pg. 18 under "Feeding and Diet"). Another use for Stress Coat
is as an aid in rehydrating/rehabilitating injured and/or dehydrated
specimens, which I will comment on later.

The information presented here is adapted from two main sources, the
book "Biology of the Land Crabs", edited by Burggren and McMahon, and
the research paper, "Terrestrial Adaptations in the Anomurans
(Crustacea: Decapoda)". Here is a link to this article:

http://www.museum.vic.gov.au/memoirs/do ... enaway.pdf

What is known from these sources, which are based upon scientific
research, is that hermit crabs maintain their shell water at salt
levels that are isosmotic (equal to) salt levels in their bodies.
Hermit crabs are separable by species with regard to their preferred
salt levels, with each species having its own preferred range of salt
levels. Beach dwelling species like C. perlatus (the Strawberry
Hermit Crab) tend to maintain salt levels that are actually of a
higher concentration than seawater, while species that live more
inland like C. clypeatus usually do not have access to seawater, and
therefore tend to have salt levels well below the concentration of
seawater. (adapted from Greenaway, 2003)

It has been well documented that the more inland species prefer
dilute water unless they are depleted of salt. (Greenaway, 2003 as
referenced from de Wilde, 1973). This would explain reports by
crabbers who actively bathe their hermit crabs that even their C.
clypeatus (considered a "more inland" species) have been observed or
noted to have "drained" their salt water dish on a regular basis.
Certainly crabs will increase water intake prior to molting, but for
C. clypeatus to frequently drain the salt water dish is likely an
indication of salt depletion due to frequent bathing in water
hyposmotic (lower in comparison) to their blood and body tissues.
This information is a very brief summary of the information found in
the article linked above starting on page 16, column 1 with the
heading "Salt and Water Balance".

Now, let me discuss the practice of actively bathing hermit crabs and
the effect it can have on their salt regulation. The procedure most
use when they bath their crabs is to submerge them, some placing them
upside down so that when they come out of their shell to turn over,
the bath water flows into their shell and rinses out dirt and feces.
Others wait until the crabs come out to walk around and then move
them around under the water to rinse out the shell. In these
processes, their shell water is swapped out for the bath water (for
some, chemically treated Stress Coat water). The net effect is that
their shell water which was once isosmotic (equal) with their blood
concentration of salt is now hyposmotic to the concentration of salt
in their blood (salt level in their shell water lower than that in
their blood and body tissues). Through osmosis, a higher
concentration will always move toward a compartment with a lower
concentration; as a result, the concentration of salts in their blood
and body tissues is lowered as some salt is lost through osmosis to
the lower concentrated shell water. This presents a problem,
potentially dropping their body salt level below the range that is
preferred for each species, especially in a beach dwelling species
like C. perlatus, which tends to be "saltier" than others for lack of
a better term. It has been noted that the renal organs of hermit
crabs (analogous to our kidneys) possibly plays a large role in their
osmoregulation through exchange of ions:

Quote:
"In aquatic species adjustments to ion content are made principally
by salt transport across the gills, and the renal organ makes only a
minor contribution. In terrestrial animals the gut and renal organs
become the main sites of ionic regulation."

Source: Biology of the Land Crabs, Burggren and McMahon, pg 213.

Since we do not know the long term effects on their body systems and
organs of the wide swings in salinity levels that can occur with
frequent bathing, perhaps we should make adjustments to the captive
care of these animals, with the goal being minimizing the overall
disturbance of their salinity levels.

Certainly, the crabs can adjust their salinity levels by selective
drinking/bathing in their habitat, and through the promotion of
evaporation (Greenaway, 2003), but again we don't know the long term
effects of wide swings in salinity levels on their osmoregulatory
systems overall and specifically their gut and renal organs.
Furthermore, one of the world's leading experts in herpetology and
captive animal husbandry, Philippe De Vosjoli recommends against
actively bathing hermit crabs for much the same reason in his
book, "The Care of Land Hermit Crabs".

The next issue to be dealt with is in regard to adding Stress Coat to
the bath water. Recently, a fellow crabber contacted the manufacturer
of Stress Coat to ask about the safety of adding it to their drinking
water. The answer was that it has not been studied and cannot be
recommended. The crabber noted that many crabbers also add it to
their bathing water. Again, the answer was this has not been studied
and cannot be recommended by the manufacturer. One point that many
Stress Coat bathers don't often realize is that their crabs are
likely exposed far longer than they think to the chemicals in Stress
Coat.

When their shell water is swapped out for Stress Coat treated water
through frequent bathing, the chemicals are now in their shell water,
and likely remain there for days after bathing, if not straight
through until the next bath all together. Even if the crabs add to
their shell water, all they are doing is diluting the chemicals. If
they are able to partially or fully submerge themselves in the
drinking water (salt and fresh) in their habitat, then some of the
chemicals no doubt wind up in their drinking water. Even changing
water every day as most crabbers do, you are likely to wind up with
some chemicals in the drinking water on a day to day basis in a set
up with multiple crabs, as each will visit the water dish on their
own schedule. Chances are somebody with Stress Coat water in their
shell will visit the water dish on a daily basis.

With these thoughts in mind many crabbers, including myself, have
opted for a more "passive" method of bathing our hermit crabs. That
is, providing basins of salt and fresh water large and deep enough to
allow the crabs to at least partially, if not fully submerge
themselves in them. One issue here is that you need to provide
adequate climbing surfaces (i.e. rocks, coral, etc.) in the basins to
ensure that even the smallest crabs can climb out from the bottom.
Some crabbers, including myself, have added a filter to their basins
in order to cut down on daily maintenance.

There are several filters that can work for this application, but you
need a water depth of about 3" to accommodate them. Penn Plax has a
Small World filter that operates off of an air pump, and they also
have a submersible filter called the Sand Shark. I have tried both
and prefer the Sand Shark. It is only a little more than the Small
World once you factor in the air pump you need for the Small World,
is much quieter, and circulates water better, creating a sort of wave
motion effect. Other brands that offer similar filters are Fluval,
Duetto and ZooMed. The most common application for these is in semi
aquatic terrariums for turtles, frogs and other semi aquatic
creatures, and most have an adjustable flow rate, making it possible
to use them in relatively small basins. To find appropriate sized
basins, measure your habitat and come up with a reasonable size that
will fit and allow for at least partial, if not full submersion. Then
visit your local pet store and look for that size dish, or visit the
tupperware isle at a local department store and measure the dishes
until you find some of appropriate size. One point to note if you
switch to a filtered basin, is that you will lose some water through
evaporation and will likely have to replace some every few days. Take
care to monitor the salinity level of the water to keep it within an
acceptable range for seawter (generally considered 1.020-1.024
specific gravity). I usually add fresh or brackish water to replace
evaporative losses so as not to increase the overall salinity. You
can monitor this with a simple hydrometer purchased at a pet store
that handles salt water fish at a cost of $10-12.

Maintenance can be an issue if you cannot filter; however, since most
crabbers change their water daily, it is not a big deal to change
water in a larger dish every day if you have to go up in size. One
problem to overcome is how does one recoup lost land surface area in
their crabitat if they have to add larger basins to accommodate
passive bathing? My answer was to landscape the terrarium so that
there is a high level of substrate at one end, molded over makeshift
caves and leveled off. What you wind up with is a natural second
level, and more surface area by way of the caves buried underneath. I
believe this can be accomplished with the smallest of crabitats and
will be happy to assist anyone with suggetions on how to do this in
their size tank. Here is a link to some photos that will show some
ideas for caves. Note the photo near the bottom of the second link
showing my C. perlatus bathing himself in a filtered saltwater basin:

http://www.kazabee.com/html/hermit_crab_stuff.html
http://www.kazabee.com/html/hermit_crab_stuff_2.html

As a matter of fairness, active bathing may be acceptable if one
cannot provide for passive bathing for the crabs in their habitat.
Active bathing would be preferable to not bathing at all, especially
if the crabs have small, shallow water dishes, or in some cases a
small shell dish with only a moist sponge (the latter of which I
certainly do not advocate), and/or if the humidity levels are low or
borderline in the crabber's home and/or the crab's habitat. If active
bathing is deemed necessary, care should be taken to minimize the
overall disturbance the crabs experience. This could mean modifying
your practices by bathing them less frequently, cutting down on the
frequency of Stress Coat use or limiting it to use for injured
specimens or those in need of rehabilitation/rehydration, and lastly
adjusting the salinity of the bath water to try to more closely match
what is likely in the shell of each species; for example, bathing C.
perlatus in full strength salt water as opposed to fresh water. There
is a chart in the Greenaway article referenced above that shows the
relative salinity levels for each species (page 17, table 3).

In closing, every crabber who actively bathes their crabs should ask
themselves the following questions:

1. How long does the Stress Coat treated water stay in my crabs'
shells
after they are bathed in it?

2. Are they exposed almost every day to Stress Coat water and the
chemicals in it as a result of my bathing because it is left in their
shell water between baths? We know crabs ingest their shell water
from time to time, they will also absorb chemicals through their
skin. Also, if they readjust by submerging in their drinking water,
the Stress Coat chemicals are likely to wind up there as well.

3. How much and how often do they actually drink when left to their
own
devices? Are they getting a bulk of their weekly drinking water
intake done at bathing time, causing them to ingest Stress Coat and
its chemicals on a regular basis?

4. What is the potential long term effect of wide swings in salinity
levels caused by once or twice weekly bathing? What is the long term
effect on the bodies of hermit crabs of constantly having to readjust
their levels-- not minor adjustments that occur through their own
natural bathing and drinking behaviors, but major adjustments
necessitated by shell water constantly being hyposmotic to blood
levels due to frequent bathing?

Give yourself honest answers to these questions. We have the
responsibility to care for these animals to the best of our ability.
This should include simulating their natural environment and giving
them the facilities they need to properly care for their own needs in
as natural a manner as possible.

Copyright 2004, Kazabee, Inc. All rights reserved.

[Willow]

It doesn't matter if the water dish is deep; there's no such thing as too deep as long as the hermies can climb out of it easily. The water container could be 2 feet deep (a little hyperbole there, but you get the point) and that wouldn't be too deep as long as it's easy to climb out of. You can do this by putting a fake plant, a sponge, some netting, etc. trailing into the dish or by getting a dish with steps built in (like Repti-Rock dishes). When Straws must be bathed (if they have mites, etc.) they should only be bathed in full-strength sea salt water.

[Guest]

Excuse me but I'm afraid there has been a misunderstanding here. I never said that I do not provide my strawberries with saltwater. Nor do I withhold saltwater from them. They, in fact, have a constant source of saltwater in their tank that they can and do get into. They just don't have a huge saltwater pool in their tank that they can completely submerge themselves in. They do get to be completely submerged in salt water during their baths.

I was also discussing the use of our fish tank water vs. tap water with Garry when he reminded me that we use a direct filtered line into our tanks since we breed guppies that most people do not have. I apparently just take that for granted. He periodically tests the water from that line to make sure it has the proper PH balance and so forth. The water goes directly from the line into our tanks without having to add any of the chemicals that most people with regular tanks would have to add. Our fish have also been disease free in 10+ years so there isn't any added chemicals to treat diseases either. Garry also frequently changes out about 25% of the water at a time so our tanks are never stagnant. For us it just makes more sense to use the water from our fish tanks then regular tap water that we would have to add chemicals too but then again there are probably very few people that have the setup that we have.

I think it is also important to remember that hermit crabs are scavengers that have been known to feed on feces. I just think some people get too worked up on having what is in their personal opinion to be absolutely perfect conditions. I haven't seen any absolute proof on anything yet. Just a lot of differing opinions. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong? I think everyone should feel free to use whatever methods they have adopted or chooses to adopt that agrees with their own logic and reasoning and works the best for them and their crabs without being subject to scorn when their methods differ from someone elses.

I guess how healthy and how long my strawberry hermit crabs live will determine whether or not I am fit to own them. Only time will tell. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

By the way, our crabs are still mite free so hopefully we won that battle. Their shells came in yesterday and Chris and Brian have already changed into new shells so they are looking mighty fine.

[Guest]

I don't think anyone was trying to subject you to scorn. This is a public board. If you ask a question or want advice then you just got exactly that.
You may not like the advice given, and that can happen. But most people on here are looking out for the crabs, and that's a good thing.

It is also my opinion that straws must have a salt water pool that they can submerge in. Bathing when you feel like it, isn't enough for them.

[Guest]

That's cool. I'll find somewhere else that's a little more user friendly. Thanks.

[Guest]

I'm not sure what you want people to tell you.

There are people here who have a lot of experience with straws and they are giving you their opinion. You said that you are going to see if what you are doing works and that will be a different kind of experience.

Sure the people who don't do it that way are not going to agree with you but that doesn't mean they aren't being user friendly.

Most of the straw owners here do what they do based on the best research that has been found. Noone is telling you what you MUST do but they will tell you what they believe is the best thing to do.

I'm sure (since I can see you have a lot of experience in crab and fish keeping) that you have a lot of good info to share as well.

We have a lot of different crab care philosophies on this board (too many!) and there is plenty of room for disagreement, but this debate has, in the past, led to new discoveries in crab care and we are all better crabbie parents for it.

[Guest]

I am sorry that you feel the need to go elsewhere. That was none of our intent.

Your explanation of the water system that you have makes a huge difference, over just "we use the water from a fish tank".

As for differences of opinion, yes you are absolutely correct. You will find many different opinions on many different topics around here, it's how we learn. However, it is not a differing opinion that Straws need to be provided with enough saltwater to submerge in. But, that is also your choice. If you don't have room, or don't see the need, that's entirely up to you.

We were trying to offer advice and assistance. I'm genuinely sorry that you were offended by our comments.