I know that many people will be turned off by such a long posting, but I do hope you will read it.
People have often written about wanting to get their crabs from the Crabbage Patch so they wouldn't have PPS. I got 14 Es and 2 PPs from The Crabbage Patch in September of last year - all teeneys and very small smalls. Because I live fairly close to Tammy's store, I get my crabs directly from her (no mailings).
(Of the 16 crabs, I believe 5 were taken by a mouse I think we have lurking somewhere in the house.) However, of the eleven left, I am now down to 5. Six of my little ones died. One may have been a disturbed moult, but what about the 5 others? They all died after I had them for at least four to six months. I believe we can assume that PPS played no part in their deaths. They came from perfect conditions with Tammy to perfect conditions at my house. That is, perfect conditions as we believe them to be.
IMO, I think we should stop blaming PPS for almost every problem we have with our crabs. I bought seven from a pet store - okay conditions - that have now been with me for over a year.
A big part of the problem as I see it is that we are so used to blaming everything that happens on PPS that we don't seem to spend any time on seeing if there is another cause or causes for our hermies' deaths. I never have had a crab that passed due to PPS. But then why did I lose 5 crabs that already had moulted (at The Crabbage Patch) and were with me for between 4 to 6 months?
I'm afraid that our focus has been to put the blame on PPS. I'm starting to think we're obscuring the real reasons for many of the deaths. I know it helps a crabber who has lost a new hermie, when they did everything right, to say it must have been PPS.
Brad, in another posting mentioned something about keeping a log. I think we should be doing more to determine why a seemingly healthy crab will run around the tat one day and be dead the next.
PPSA bunch of you k
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brad873
Topic author
I'll have to disagree with you on several points...
First, PPS is not a specific ailment per se, it is more of a general explanation for many deaths in recently purchased crabs.![[smilie=fyi.gif]](./images/smilies/fyi.gif "fyi")
Is it overused? Sure, but is it a better explanation than beating yourself up because the crab you brought home two days before keeled over despite your best efforts?
IMO, yeah. 
The "stress" could come from any number of causes along the supply chain. Harvesting? Stressful.
Shipping? Stressful. Strange, new habitat in a store? Stressful. Transport to buyer's home? Stressful. Yet another strange, new habitat? Stressful.
Doesn't matter how "perfect" you might consider Crabbage Patch's set-up or your own set-up, a new environment is going to be stressful. You can try to minimize that stress to a certain extent, but not totally eliminate it.
Why do some crab handle stress better than others? Not all crabs are subjected to equal stresses. I'm sure genetics & general health play a fairly strong role as well. Why does any organism survive better than its peers? Our old pal Darwin did have quite a bit to say on that.
I also disagree that you should assume stress had nothing to do with your other crabs' deaths. It's been theorized in the past that the effects of "post-purchase stress" can last up to a year or more. There was much debate on the subject here in the past and quite a lot of valid points were made.
I will agree that blaming post purchase stress syndrome has become sort of the go-to catch all type answer and other causes do tend to be overlooked, but it's not as if everyone here is equipped and/or willing to do a full-scale necropsy on each and every crab.
Other factors to consider could include any sort of parasitic or bacterial infection. Viruses too for that matter. Those all could come into play in two ways, either the stresses and shock of the whole harvest/transport/sales process weaken the crabs' systems and allow the boogies to take hold or the boogies do the weakening and make the crabs more susceptible to stress.
Post purchase stress syndrome, or PPS if you prefer, is not any scientific or medical diagnosis, nor was it ever in any way intended to be. It was just a tidy little nickname that some folks back in the day tagged to attempt to explain seemingly unexplainable crab deaths.
First, PPS is not a specific ailment per se, it is more of a general explanation for many deaths in recently purchased crabs.
Is it overused? Sure, but is it a better explanation than beating yourself up because the crab you brought home two days before keeled over despite your best efforts?
IMO, yeah. The "stress" could come from any number of causes along the supply chain. Harvesting? Stressful.
Shipping? Stressful. Strange, new habitat in a store? Stressful. Transport to buyer's home? Stressful. Yet another strange, new habitat? Stressful. Doesn't matter how "perfect" you might consider Crabbage Patch's set-up or your own set-up, a new environment is going to be stressful. You can try to minimize that stress to a certain extent, but not totally eliminate it.
Why do some crab handle stress better than others? Not all crabs are subjected to equal stresses. I'm sure genetics & general health play a fairly strong role as well. Why does any organism survive better than its peers? Our old pal Darwin did have quite a bit to say on that.
I also disagree that you should assume stress had nothing to do with your other crabs' deaths. It's been theorized in the past that the effects of "post-purchase stress" can last up to a year or more. There was much debate on the subject here in the past and quite a lot of valid points were made.
I will agree that blaming post purchase stress syndrome has become sort of the go-to catch all type answer and other causes do tend to be overlooked, but it's not as if everyone here is equipped and/or willing to do a full-scale necropsy on each and every crab.
Other factors to consider could include any sort of parasitic or bacterial infection. Viruses too for that matter. Those all could come into play in two ways, either the stresses and shock of the whole harvest/transport/sales process weaken the crabs' systems and allow the boogies to take hold or the boogies do the weakening and make the crabs more susceptible to stress.
Post purchase stress syndrome, or PPS if you prefer, is not any scientific or medical diagnosis, nor was it ever in any way intended to be. It was just a tidy little nickname that some folks back in the day tagged to attempt to explain seemingly unexplainable crab deaths.
"Nothing divides one so much as thought." - R. H. Blyth
"Sometimes the picture just ain't what it seems. You get what you want, but it's not what you need..."
"Sometimes the picture just ain't what it seems. You get what you want, but it's not what you need..."
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Cynderella727
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:43 pm
- Location: The City That Never Sleeps
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Guest
Topic author
Gramma, Wickie, I'll have to partially agree with both of you. I think that it is important to remember that sometimes, no matter how long you've had a crab, sometimes things beyond our control can happen that we can't explain. Also, I think it's important to remember that even crabs in a good store environment or good home environment could still be stressed and unable to deal with that stress. Any captive environment, ideal or not, is not the wild.
But I think it's important to watch our crabs and pay attention, whether that means keeping things in mind or keeping a log ( I am a strong proponent of writing things down for MANY situations.) we need to be sensitive to our crabs needs and feelings.
For instance, I recently lost my little Sally. While I had the minimum substrate more than 2X as deep as the largest crab, I have to consider the possibility that more substrate might have spared her. Maybe she was disturb by a larger insensitive crab. I don't keep this in mind to berate myself. I keep this in mind to make improvements in the future. I react to this information by doubling or tripling the amount of substrate in my new tank. Will this be my no fail security measure? No, but if it's a possible help, I'll try it.
Another example. In the old tank, I noticed that the crabs rarely came up to the second level during the day. They would all find nice hidey places on the first level to curl up and sleep. On the one hand, I am glad that I had a nice dark first level with lots of hideys for them in the tank. But, on the other hand, I wanted the crabs to feel like they could spread out if they wanted to, so in the new tank I added more hideys - plants, logs, moss pits. Because of my attention to their behavior and wants, I now have crablet all over the tank to spy on. Will this save their lives? Probably not. But it might make them happier. All I can do is watch, notice and react.
In short, I do think that it's important to pay attention to behavior, deaths, activity, not to berate ourselves and wallow in guilt, but to help guide us in creating the best possible environment for our crabs. After all, that's why we're all here, to share insight with each other, learn from each other. Why not also learn as much as we can from our own crabs?
But I think it's important to watch our crabs and pay attention, whether that means keeping things in mind or keeping a log ( I am a strong proponent of writing things down for MANY situations.) we need to be sensitive to our crabs needs and feelings.
For instance, I recently lost my little Sally. While I had the minimum substrate more than 2X as deep as the largest crab, I have to consider the possibility that more substrate might have spared her. Maybe she was disturb by a larger insensitive crab. I don't keep this in mind to berate myself. I keep this in mind to make improvements in the future. I react to this information by doubling or tripling the amount of substrate in my new tank. Will this be my no fail security measure? No, but if it's a possible help, I'll try it.
Another example. In the old tank, I noticed that the crabs rarely came up to the second level during the day. They would all find nice hidey places on the first level to curl up and sleep. On the one hand, I am glad that I had a nice dark first level with lots of hideys for them in the tank. But, on the other hand, I wanted the crabs to feel like they could spread out if they wanted to, so in the new tank I added more hideys - plants, logs, moss pits. Because of my attention to their behavior and wants, I now have crablet all over the tank to spy on. Will this save their lives? Probably not. But it might make them happier. All I can do is watch, notice and react.
In short, I do think that it's important to pay attention to behavior, deaths, activity, not to berate ourselves and wallow in guilt, but to help guide us in creating the best possible environment for our crabs. After all, that's why we're all here, to share insight with each other, learn from each other. Why not also learn as much as we can from our own crabs?
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Guest
Topic author
Agreed.megs wrote:I'll have to disagree with you on several points...
First, PPS is not a specific ailment per se, it is more of a general explanation for many deaths in recently purchased crabs.
Is it overused? Sure, but is it a better explanation than beating yourself up because the crab you brought home two days before keeled over despite your best efforts?
The "stress" could come from any number of causes along the supply chain. Harvesting? Stressful.
Doesn't matter how "perfect" you might consider Crabbage Patch's set-up or your own set-up, a new environment is going to be stressful. You can try to minimize that stress to a certain extent, but not totally eliminate it.
Why do some crab handle stress better than others? Not all crabs are subjected to equal stresses. I'm sure genetics & general health play a fairly strong role as well. Why does any organism survive better than its peers? Our old pal Darwin did have quite a bit to say on that.
I also disagree that you should assume stress had nothing to do with your other crabs' deaths. It's been theorized in the past that the effects of "post-purchase stress" can last up to a year or more. There was much debate on the subject here in the past and quite a lot of valid points were made.
I will agree that blaming post purchase stress syndrome has become sort of the go-to catch all type answer and other causes do tend to be overlooked, but it's not as if everyone here is equipped and/or willing to do a full-scale necropsy on each and every crab.
Other factors to consider could include any sort of parasitic or bacterial infection. Viruses too for that matter. Those all could come into play in two ways, either the stresses and shock of the whole harvest/transport/sales process weaken the crabs' systems and allow the boogies to take hold or the boogies do the weakening and make the crabs more susceptible to stress.
Post purchase stress syndrome, or PPS if you prefer, is not any scientific or medical diagnosis, nor was it ever in any way intended to be. It was just a tidy little nickname that some folks back in the day tagged to attempt to explain seemingly unexplainable crab deaths.
I think that alot of people (beginners particularly) misunderstand what exactly "PPS" is. "PPS" as (megs said) is generally used when a crab dies within at least two weeks and is thought to be the accumulation of "stress" on the LHC from harvesting to being put inside your tank. As of now it's a logical explanation for anonymous crab deaths after purchasing.
There is still many "unknowns" about land hermits in captivity, we know the basics but we still can not explain seemingly "random" deaths. Why is it that a crab will seem to thrive for a year or more and then slowly start to die? Diet,water quality, humidity, temperature etc. Even "PPS" which has been thought to last for at least a year have all been used as possible explanations.
In my opinion PPS should be used as the last explanation after you have checked to see if everything else in the tank is suitable.
As for the crabs sold at the Crabbage patch: I don't think that because the owner managed to get eggs from a crab or keeps them in an out side environment means they are the end all, end all of crab hobbiest, currently every land hermit crab you see is wild caught and is going to experience "PPS" regardless of the "quality" of your tank. Please don't get me wrong, I am not attacking the owner in the least I am simply pointing out that wild caught hermit crabs are going to be exposed to the same level of stress regardless of having "perfect" conditions.
On a side note: Does the crabbage patch sell C.violacens? I have not had the pleasure of purchasing crabs from the crabbage patch yet but if they sell exotics maybe I will get a chance.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.
And that is exactly the sort of circumstances that the term PPS was originally coined for. The crabs came from an environment with poor conditions and suffered health issues because of it. You can theorize more specific causes (in this case, gill damage & suffocation) that led to their deaths but it is impossible to know for sure. As SP said, it's become a rather misunderstood term sometimes.Cynderella727 wrote:Honestly, I believe that my guys probably died as a result of gill damage due to extremely dry conditions prior to purchase rather than PPS. But, I guess I will never know for sure.
You mean me???Pumpkin Skipper wrote:Gramma, Wickie, I'll have to partially agree with both of you.
Just call me wickedmegabella...
"Nothing divides one so much as thought." - R. H. Blyth
"Sometimes the picture just ain't what it seems. You get what you want, but it's not what you need..."
"Sometimes the picture just ain't what it seems. You get what you want, but it's not what you need..."
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Guest
Topic author
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brad873
Topic author
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Guest
Topic author
It would make sense to me if there were two naming conventions-
PPS- deaths within 2-3 weeks in ideal conditions
PPSE- (extended) deaths within a year in ideal conditions.
One could be used for initial issues... while another for unavoidable (?) issues over a longer period. This would allow for some better explinations in the "PPS" area.
I /personally/ wouldn't use PPS if I had the crab for a while and it was acting well, however I lost my first guy to PPS this morning.
I got a buddy last week and he was really shy in the store. Didn't want to move around, and didn't explore anything. He instantly dug down, but 2 days later came up and sat there. He came up, and would either sit on the food or next to the water... and didn't move more then 3" for about 5 days. Over those days, he wouldn't eat, wouldn't dig down, nothing-- just sat there. There was no normal behavior ever... just sat there. Then, I woke up to three dropped limbs and him sitting in the same place (still).
To me, this looks like he just couldn't deal with the move. However, if he was really active for that first week and suddenly died--- I wouldn't think "PPS", I'de think more of a sensativity being in a new home combined with an enviornmental issue.
So maybe thinking about PPS and PPS(E) or something is a better idea?
PPS- deaths within 2-3 weeks in ideal conditions
PPSE- (extended) deaths within a year in ideal conditions.
One could be used for initial issues... while another for unavoidable (?) issues over a longer period. This would allow for some better explinations in the "PPS" area.
I /personally/ wouldn't use PPS if I had the crab for a while and it was acting well, however I lost my first guy to PPS this morning.
I got a buddy last week and he was really shy in the store. Didn't want to move around, and didn't explore anything. He instantly dug down, but 2 days later came up and sat there. He came up, and would either sit on the food or next to the water... and didn't move more then 3" for about 5 days. Over those days, he wouldn't eat, wouldn't dig down, nothing-- just sat there. There was no normal behavior ever... just sat there. Then, I woke up to three dropped limbs and him sitting in the same place (still).
To me, this looks like he just couldn't deal with the move. However, if he was really active for that first week and suddenly died--- I wouldn't think "PPS", I'de think more of a sensativity being in a new home combined with an enviornmental issue.
So maybe thinking about PPS and PPS(E) or something is a better idea?
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Guest
Topic author
JoshNeff wrote:It would make sense to me if there were two naming conventions-
PPS- deaths within 2-3 weeks in ideal conditions
PPSE- (extended) deaths within a year in ideal conditions.
One could be used for initial issues... while another for unavoidable (?) issues over a longer period. This would allow for some better explinations in the "PPS" area.
I /personally/ wouldn't use PPS if I had the crab for a while and it was acting well, however I lost my first guy to PPS this morning.
I got a buddy last week and he was really shy in the store. Didn't want to move around, and didn't explore anything. He instantly dug down, but 2 days later came up and sat there. He came up, and would either sit on the food or next to the water... and didn't move more then 3" for about 5 days. Over those days, he wouldn't eat, wouldn't dig down, nothing-- just sat there. There was no normal behavior ever... just sat there. Then, I woke up to three dropped limbs and him sitting in the same place (still).
To me, this looks like he just couldn't deal with the move. However, if he was really active for that first week and suddenly died--- I wouldn't think "PPS", I'de think more of a sensativity being in a new home combined with an enviornmental issue.
So maybe thinking about PPS and PPS(E) or something is a better idea?
The example you gave is what I consider to be an actual instance of PPS since the crab never seemed to have any sort of recovery stage.
I also agree with the idea of having two different acronyms for "PPS". Since some crabs will seem to do well for a couple of weeks to a month after purchase but eventually start too deteriorate while others can die within a week. I think it just takes time for it to catch up with them.
Deaths occurring at least two months after purchase should not be considered "PPS" in my opinion but rather, "PPSE", which should only be used for 1-2 months after purchase.
The only thing I would be worried about is some people might not understand the difference and start using "PPSE" for any death after purchase without looking at other contributing factors.
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wickedannabella
Topic author
Whew! I thought I had gone into the TWILIGHT ZONE there for a minute! HEHEHEPumpkin Skipper wrote:Yeah, sorry. The witch avatar just put Wickedannabella in my mind... don't know why.
While I agree that PPS gets used as a blanket cause for a death shortly after purchase, I think just the name itself POST PURCHASE STRESS encompasses so much. Gill Damage, trauma, stress, fright, poor conditions...I mean, just like humans, each crab handles these changes in their life differently. I have one crab Bob, who not only came from deplorable conditions at a mall kiosk, but survived a 10 day excursion OUTSIDE the tank in LATE NOVEMBER!
Some crabs are tough little buggars and others have a more DELICATE constitution! Just like humans.
Personally, I'm amazed that any of these guys survive at all.
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Guest
Topic author
Now, wicki, your avatar looks like something from the black lagoon now. (A cute something, mind you.)
Seriously, I think the original point is that we should not lightly brush off any death as unavoidable, and certainly nothing that we did wrong. As I said, we are all presumably here to learn about being better crab keepers. We all seem disappointed by those who keep crabs in poor condition and brush off their crabs dying, assuming that "they just don't live too long." Is it any worse to come up with a static care method for our crabs and assume that any death is just unavoidable? I don't think so. I know we're all doing our best, and it's important for us all to remember that doing our best means being willing to watch and change behavior if we think it might help.
Seriously, I think the original point is that we should not lightly brush off any death as unavoidable, and certainly nothing that we did wrong. As I said, we are all presumably here to learn about being better crab keepers. We all seem disappointed by those who keep crabs in poor condition and brush off their crabs dying, assuming that "they just don't live too long." Is it any worse to come up with a static care method for our crabs and assume that any death is just unavoidable? I don't think so. I know we're all doing our best, and it's important for us all to remember that doing our best means being willing to watch and change behavior if we think it might help.
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Guest
Topic author
There have been several articles written about just this. I think, agreeing with some and disagreeing with others, that PPS really cannot be used to indicate cause of death for a crab that you have had for months or even up to a year. Honestly, in that situation a crab owner needs to look more closely at their conditions.
Crabs die for lots of reasons and having an unexplainable death is always frustrating. It's hard to admit that something might be amiss in our own tanks and sometimes there is nothing wrong at all and we still lose a crab because captivity just isn't good enough for some crabs, it's just not. Everyone has dealt with unexplainable deaths of crabs that we felt had made the transition. It happens.
In my opinion, the window for PPS ends after a few weeks to a month in your tank, I do think that there is another window when a death can be blamed on PPS is during that crabs first molt. Not all crabs are able to molt successfully in captivity.
Out of 14 crab deaths over the years I would only blame 3 on PPS. Those three died withing a few days to a few weeks. All exhibited the same behavior.
You can read my article about PPS on naturallycrabby.com
Crabs die for lots of reasons and having an unexplainable death is always frustrating. It's hard to admit that something might be amiss in our own tanks and sometimes there is nothing wrong at all and we still lose a crab because captivity just isn't good enough for some crabs, it's just not. Everyone has dealt with unexplainable deaths of crabs that we felt had made the transition. It happens.
In my opinion, the window for PPS ends after a few weeks to a month in your tank, I do think that there is another window when a death can be blamed on PPS is during that crabs first molt. Not all crabs are able to molt successfully in captivity.
Out of 14 crab deaths over the years I would only blame 3 on PPS. Those three died withing a few days to a few weeks. All exhibited the same behavior.
You can read my article about PPS on naturallycrabby.com
:dunno: