A Discussion on Substrate

[NaRnAR]

Rose I think it probably has something to do with the drastic switch from Calci-sand to the EE/Sand Mix. I know that I had a few stress out when I switched from 100% sand or sand/EE mix to 100% EE, I dont remember any nakies but I had a few that refused to come down out of the climbies. Perhaps an area where there is a mix of the calci with the EE and sand, this way they can experience it if they want to and get a chance to dig in and play.

For my two cents Ive used 100% EE for around 4 years now. I can honestly say that when I switched from 100% sand or EE sand mix to 100% EE I have had less deaths during molting. Not only have I had less deaths, Ive had less problems with mold and insects as well as fluctuating humidity and dry areas away from the water dishes. I also almost never have a surface molter.

I like Jed, dont do "deep cleans" either. Once a year I pull all of the stuff out of the tank, give the EE a stir and if it needs it, I add another brick and take a bit of the old out. During the week I simply scoop out the EE that gets in the pools and put it back on top the substrate---you should see them RUN to eat this stuff, theyd rather eat this slightly stinky EE than their food!!! I then just refill the water, feed 'em, and reorganize the tank. Nothing is scrubbed, cleaned...anything, ever, other than the food dishes of course. I think when you give completely new substrate it sends their ecosystem in that tank for whirl, everything they have worked so hard to build up---bacteria, natural decomp of the EE, all of that is gone and has to be re-established. I also add natural elements to the tank, they get branches from outside, dandelion leaves and flowers directly from outside...I inspect them, give the leaves and flowers a shake and into the tank they go. I think it makes a big difference in the health of the tank to allow natural cycles to occur such as decomp...we shouldnt be afraid of it or try to prevent it.

With decomp, I dont think its that the EE can be blamed for decomping the molter. Ive had crabs under molting for 3-4 months, some have left windows for that amount of time. At no time, when they were in the moistest area of the EE under the water dishes, did decomp occur. I do however agree that EE has the potential for more bacteria than sand just because it is biodegradable and therefore things that are dead or sit stagnant in the soil will disappear after a long amount of time. So your molter dies during the process and naturally starts to decompose anyways and the soil helps it along....heck it might even gain beneficial bacteria FROM the decomposing dead crab. *shrug*

Im not saying that I dont have crab deaths during molt either, I do, I just dont have the luxury of finding them when I stir the substrate....which is just fine with me. Id rather have the dead ones decompose or even get eaten by the others than me finding them and throwing them out in the trash. If the soil or my crabs will benefit from their fallen friend, then that is more important...not that I ever see them eating them either, Im just assuming that happens with the ones digging around when they encounter a dead one. (besides I cant put them in my garden for fertilizer....apparently squirrels like to eat dead crabs :roll: )

[Tremors]

Well said Nar!

[SachOfSCP]

Just some food for thought since so few ever seem to make note of this.....

Narnar, I notice you live in Colorado. Your air is MUCH drier than in some other parts of the country (such as PA where I am now, having moved from Co Springs,hh), so that may be why the all EE works so well for you. Not only is the outside air so much drier, but inside humidity can drop as low as 5% in the winter time, so the combo of EE and dry outside air might actually create perfect conditions for your crabbies.

I know I was one of the first people in this thread to say that the straight EE isn't a good idea, but I'm also the biggest advocate on taking your surrounding climate into consideration. Someone who lives in a drier climate may be able to make the EE work more beneficially for them than someone who lives in, say, FL where you'd be fighting to keep the humidity down,hh. It also depends on how you keep the "weather" INSIDE your house. I believe strongly that all of these things need to be considered.

I also believe that yes, when you switch everything up, it kinda makes their heads spin as far as having gotten it "just the way they like it" and so, can stress them out. I also agree that we shouldn't necessarily be afraid of stuff like decomp, however, bear in mind that while things like decomp are natural; we are only trying to do our best to replicate nature. Even the best crabitat is still not nature, just a small example of our version of it. Our tanks are a more contained ecosystem and especially smaller, contained areas than out in the wild.

As for blaming the decomp and deaths on the EE, these are things discovered through careful research and experiments by people who I completely trust and have been monitoring this stuff for years. I believe when someone has had hundreds or even thousands of crabs over the years, (like Bob from ELHC) that they get the best look at the variables inherent with keeping hermies in captivity, so I trust his research.

Just out of curiosity, Narnar, you say you have never found and dead molters while cleaning. Do you regularly keep a lot f (unnamed, perhaps) hermies, so you don't always notice when you lose one? I ask because (especially since I still have a really small set up) I try to keep track (and notes) of al my guys and they all have names, so I would definitely notice if one was missing or dead. As for them not eating their dead, I have heard that (even though they are scavengers) they will only eat their own dead in captivity if they are starving, so that's good news for you that they haven't,hh!

As for the squirrels.....yeah, I noticed. I have a little "crabby graveyard" in the back yard for the fallen ones and the squirrels seem to dig some of them up regularly!

[suebee]

Im not having any deaths. I keep count and know when someone is missing. I did have a period of losing crabs but it was only when I attempted to use more EE then sand for the looks.. When ever I did have a death i would do all I could to determine why I lost the crab. I have attempted to bring home crabs that where shell less in the stores and have had a couple of those that didnt make it but I really think my tank had nothing to do with it if when I got the crab it was missing most of its legs or shell less. When I first started out I did have deaths. That was 15 almost 16 years ago. I finely feel that I have tanks that are better then Ive ever had before. I thank Bob from ELHC and Tammy & Kirk from HCP for all the help in getting to this point. I dont do a bunch of deep cleans either. My crabs have burrows that I see them come in and out of and I do not want to disturb them. Im also very careful not to move logs, huts and other things that my crabs burrow under. I find the violas do not burrow as much as the others. My violas seem to hang out in the trees.
The indos need lots of space for shell changing, they love to switch shells and they give me a fashion show daily. (they also normally end up back in the shell they started with)
I do daily water changes and I clean all my bowls. I use a brush and tap water letting them air dry. Doing it daily makes it so that i hardly ever need to use vinegar just hot tap water. Ive been dumping any left over worm castings into my substrate for a long while now and that is making the substrate a bit darker then just sand. The crabs seem to like it and are all doing well.
Im very hands on with my crabs. I check then and keep records so i know who hasnt shown up at dinner time and for how long. If one goes missing I keep check to see that around a given molting time he or she does show back up.
Id freak out if when i stirred up the tank i found any dead crabs. I have a need to know why and what i could of done to prevent it. Having the same crabs for a long time I get very attached. I also keep a count of how many extra shells i have in the tank and change them out every other day. This way i would know if i ended up with a extra shell that could mean a missing crab.
I honestly am not trying to say my method is best. I do want to share how successfully i have been with it however. If a person is having problems i just want them to know what works for me. I also want them to know that over the past years i have tried lots of other substrates. This is the first substrate mix that I feel has not in any way caused any deaths. Im not saying others methods will cause deaths but i do know from my records that i had deaths unexplained when i used what i feel is to much EE. It might of looked pretty but i dont think it was best for my crabs. Im sure different parts of the world with different humidity levels would change things too.

[wodesorel]

As for them not eating their dead, I have heard that (even though they are scavengers) they will only eat their own dead in captivity if they are starving, so that's good news for you that they haven't,hh!

I know that they'll attack and eat other species when they're molting. Learned that the hard way, twice. The PPs found and ate one E that was molting. The other E I didn't realize was just about to molt and when I put him in a holding container with the other crabs the PPs were having a munch fest within five minutes. The Es did not touch their own, but that may just have been because they couldn't get near because of the gang of PPs. And my crabs certainly aren't starving! I've since separated them by species, and have had nothing but good molts. (With the exception of Thor, but he was being kept in ISO at the time.)

[SachOfSCP]

I was referring to them eating the dead crabs. We all know they will eat molters due to that instinct to eat the exo after molting. But they won't eat their DEAD tankmates unless they are starving.

[SunnyKrab]

I am a relatively new crabber compared to say Christa and a few others here...but in the passed 7 years that I have been crabbing I have gone from 100% sand to 100% EE . The only real significant difference I could see was when I was using 100% sand I had issues with the humidity being a tad bit too high. Then that issue of a pool leak that a few of you may remember that wiped out two thirds of my tank as they were almost all under and molting at the time.(But that I cant blame 100% on the sand as it was a mechanical failure that I caught too late)

My 2 cents is....go with what works best for you and your crabs. If you have happy healthy crabs with a mixture, go for it...if your crabs are doing their thing with 100% either /or you are doing something right. Like someone wise here says on occasion....your mileage may vary....good rule of thumb on most debates.

[NaRnAR]

MamaTurtle I believe you read my post wrong:

Im not saying that I dont have crab deaths during molt either, I do, I just dont have the luxury of finding them when I stir the substrate....which is just fine with me. Id rather have the dead ones decompose or even get eaten by the others than me finding them and throwing them out in the trash. If the soil or my crabs will benefit from their fallen friend, then that is more important...not that I ever see them eating them either, Im just assuming that happens with the ones digging around when they encounter a dead one.

Sure, Ive had crabs die during molting, not recently, but it does happen. I dont keep daily records of my crabs nor do I interact with them on a daily basis....I dont have the time to sit and journal about 50 hermit crabs and take note of who eats dinner on a regular basis and who doesnt. And, some of them dont have names....others have names and I have no idea which one they are. In fact out of 50 hermit crabs I can positively ID 6 or 7 of them.....my three largest pps, my strawberry Mandarin, pp-Smuckers, pp-Sparky, my largest E, and my smallest pp Flourette. As for the others, who knows. Ive had the majority of my crabs for 5-8 years...they are happy and healthy, doesnt matter to me whos who, anymore.

Im curious as to the experiments/research with decomp, LIVE hermit crabs and EE. I would assume that to prove that EE does decomp a molting live hermit crab this has been witnessed, not just assumed because the crab was found rotting or "missing"?

Im not trying to be a stick in the mud nor am I taking offense, it just that stressing the 5:1 mix is "the best" and knocking 100% mixes of substrate really disappoints me. Hermit crab keeping is not about getting on a band wagon, its about finding what works for your crabs.

[SachOfSCP]

Well, my personal feeling is that as cool as it must be to have so many hermies that you can't keep track of who's who (I will eventually have more,hh), I like having my small number that I can know well (I have and I am very fortunate to be able to be home all the time, so I can interact with and keep track of them. Even with my small group, I can't always know who is eating what unless I witness it, but I can know what gets eaten and what gets left. (I also have one who likes to drag food off & stash it, even if it's a bone 3 times his size,hh ) I also really love being able to be hands on with my guys and know them all individually They all have such distinct personalities. They are all almost all different sizes, so that makes it easier to know who's who when they swap shells (my 3 biggies are different sizes, but close enough to share the same shells, hh) and of my 3 biggest, they have different colorings and personalities

As for the research into the EE with molters and whatnot, Suebee has more info on that than I do, but as someone pointed out to me, you can definitely see what the EE does to shells, it dulls them and like I said to someone else in a different thread; there's no harm in trying it out yourself as an experiment by putting a pile of each (EE, mix and sand) in your garden with some organic matter & seeing what happens.

I don't say that the 5:1 mix is the best (mine isn't even 5:1, but more like 4:2) or knock 100% of the others. I just try to pass along the info as I have learned it, as well as what my own (albeit limited) research has shown me and to take into account the local conditions too. Like I said, someone living in a dry climate would likely have better luck with straight EE than someone living somewhere more humid. Vice versa for sand probably. Like I said before too, it does make sense to me that in the wild crabs wouldn't live in 100% of either, but more a mixture of the two.

[wodesorel]

I was referring to them eating the dead crabs. We all know they will eat molters due to that instinct to eat the exo after molting. But they won't eat their DEAD tankmates unless they are starving.

Well, all I'm saying is that they'll kill a crab and then eat it once it's dead. How that would be different than finding one already dead I don't know. (They were not after the shed exo - they didn't touch that. They went after the soft abdomen first, which leads me to believe that they just took the advantage while the crab could not protect itself. )

[suebee]

I have posted lots of information about the problems with using all EE. All sand does not have those problems and ive never said all Sand is a problem. The thread with all the information was deleted due to nonsense things like people posting links to photos of Bob from ELHCs home. The information was there and i do not plan on rewriting it again to possibly be deleted by yet another nonsense post. I do not plan on ever becoming a hermit crab hoarder so i will never become a person who can not keep track of my hermit crabs. Now that I am not having any deaths and ive had some of my crabs for 14 years i can not see me getting many more. I personally know all my crabs. I will know if someone is missing. I will definitely know if one of them kills and eats another and ive never had that either. I do have separate species tanks do to listening to where i purchased my crabs and would not keep ones together that could possible be a problem. I know some chose to take that chance. I trust my suppliers and the decades of time longer then I that they have had crabs. I trust the research. Im not one to try things that could jeopardize my crabs when ive been told not to. The moment i had 2 deaths in a year i started looking to find out why. The only change i had made was substrate.. I changed that and again im not having deaths.. I thank The people who were willing to share the many years of research with me and as a thank you to them i said I would share the information with other crabbers. Thats what ive done and will continue to do. Blessings,Sue

[NaRnAR]

Im not sure Ive ever been referenced to as a hermit crab hoarder. Interesting. The majority of my crabs have been adopted, so dont be too quick to judge my background....in fact 20 of them are from a very close friend who could no longer care for them. The amount of crabs you have is totally personal choice, if you feel comfortable with 30 and have the room and the budget for 10 tanks, so be it. I feel comfortable with the amount that i have. And regardless of knowing their names, I do know my crabs and I love them dearly, I know what they like and what they dont, where they like to nap/hide, whos down, their favorite foods, the capabilities of those that are blind from the beginnings with commercial foods, and how they will react to new surroundings. Thats all that matters.

As far as EE past postings go, I dont remember anything showing the research that said EE decomposes Live Molters. Im still rather curious how the experiment went.

[sugarselections]

I also use 100% coco fiber and have been doing so for over two years in both my hermit crab tanks. It has worked really well for me.

[aquav]

I am getting into this discussion now too.
I used to be an advocate of 100% EE, switched and added a little Aragonite that was left over from a fish tank, and recently added some sand as well.
Honestly, I have not noticed any differences in molting behavior, deaths or anything else for that matter.
I did have a recent molter die while they were down, which hasn't happened in ages. This however was due to a leak in my saltwater pond. This molter was buried right next to the pond and by the time I discovered the leak that area was soaked.
I think there are a lot of factors that play into successful crab keeping. If food, water and other requirements are the best they can be in captivity, I think the hermies will do just fine, regardless of substrate (with the exception of calci sand maybe, but we have even heard success stories on that).
In order to make an educated guess, someone does need to set up a scientific research project and report their findings over a period of months, if not years. Until then, I will be adding more EE to my tank again, feed quality foods and also refrain from deep cleans as a few others here.
Not to hijack the thread, but I have never done a deep clean, only added to existing soil, even when switching to larger tanks, because I agree that beneficial bacterial colonies get destroyed during a deep clean.
It is similar to cycling a fish tank, you never do a 100% water change and get rid of the bio filters at the same time.
Just my 2 cents.

[cass2399]

I am relatively new to crabbing but here is what I use. I started out using 100% sand and was happy with that. The crabs loved it. Dug all over, molted. I did have a few deaths but I attributed those to the extremely poor conditions that they had come from (they both died a few days after I got them). I switched to 100% EE after a deep clean and my crabs hated it. They always hid in the moss pit and were hardly ever seen on the ground. I found my straw (who had been so active in the 100% sand) in pieces under the EE, his shell dull and beginning to be eaten away. I changed to a 5:1 mix and my crabs LOVE it. They are all over the place. I have tunnels everywhere. They are hardly in the moss pit anymore. They are climbing all over stuff and digging. So for me personally, I will never go back to 100% EE.

I just think that everyone needs to use what they think is best for them and what works for them. I almost dread coming on the boards anymore because of threads like this. They always end up with people getting upset with each other. NONE of us know what is exactly right. We just know what works for us and that's fine.