Aussie salt water myth?

tigermoon89 · Post by **tigermoon89** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:40 pm

I sent the hermit crab patch a message for Vanessa, they sent it back saying that I must of sent it to them by mistake.

Does anyone know how to to contact Vanessa? I can't find an email on her site.

tnt4eva · Post by **tnt4eva** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:51 pm

tigermoon89 wrote:I sent the hermit crab patch a message for Vanessa, they sent it back saying that I must of sent it to them by mistake.

Does anyone know how to to contact Vanessa? I can't find an email on her site.

She's on Facebook. If I find an email address, I'll let you know.

tnt4eva · Post by **tnt4eva** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:57 pm

Her photography website has an email address on it
http://www.vanessapikerussell.com.au/

tigermoon89 · Post by **tigermoon89** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:43 pm

thanks tnt4eva!

Just to clarify:
According to the Crab patch:
No, there is no Hermit Crab Patch forum...only our online store and care site. Vanessa was the founder of The Crab Street Journal so your best bet would be to contact the new owner of that site

tigermoon89 · Post by **tigermoon89** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:24 pm

Oops! Forgot to ask all the crabbers with Aussies to state how long you have had each Aussie.

Update: no responses to the emails yet.

Nat_addicted to HC's · Post by **Nat_addicted to HC's** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:39 pm

My first ones are 2 and half years and my latest crabs are only a few months with me

size was varied when I first got them. hope this helps

tigermoon89 · Post by **tigermoon89** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:44 pm

Here is what I wrote to each individual (Vanessa/Merv/Bob):

Hello,

I am writing to you on behalf of the Hermit Crab Association (www.hermitcrabassociation.com).

I am working on the species care sheets and find myself stuck in the middle of what is becoming a rather heated debate.

Do Aussies need to have their salt water intake restricted to once a week? Do you know how the (potential) myth of Aussies being salt water gorges got started? Why would this species have issues with salt water intake when others do not?

Are younger Aussies more likely to gorge themselves on salt water than older Aussies?
What type of care do you recommend for this species and how long have you cared for them?

How many casualties from salt-water intake have you had and what leads you to believe it’s from salt water?

"Is it possible that PPS be the culprit instead of the salt water? There will always be losses to PPS, even in the best conditions - could the mix-up be that the water got blamed rather than known causes of new crab deaths".

"If it were actually due to salt water, then there should be masses of people experiencing multiple deaths when they keep their aussies with salt-water full time, how is it that these crabs are still alive? Some have been reported as living with full access and still alive after fifteen years".

I understand that you are busy and just want to thank you for taking the time to read through this. If it's at all possible can you please share any documents or records of your own on this?

Thank you for any information in advance!

Crystal

So far, I have only received Vanessa's response:

Here it is:
Hi Crystal,

Thanks for contacting me. I would guess that this gem of information comes from the largest hermit crab supplier in Australia - Merv Cooper. I used to follow his care booklet to the letter and all my crabs died. Then I did research which taught me to do the opposite of much of that booklet. Woodshavings, no heat source, the 'crab chow' they sell which crabs just won't eat. It's all about the almighty $$$ with Merv and I spent years re-educating pet stores and the public to un-do the many years of mis-information and crab deaths.

Then I met and shared with crabbers like CrabloverDon (CLD) , Carol of Crabworks (Carol Ormes), Jennifer Borgesen and other trusted crabbers and learned more that re-enforced my choice of substrates, humidity, temperature and the like.

There are countless Australians that left salt water in the tank and didn't follow Merv's one day a week rule. If you think about it a crab that NEEDS salt water to moult should be provided it when they need it, not because it is a certain day of the week - in my opinion.

In my experience when keeping crabs in wood shavings and low humidity as per the booklet the crabs were so stressed that when they did try to moult they rarely survived and were very weak due to the lack of protein, calcium and other nutrients that I later realised they needed. If one thing is taken out of context it can change the results - i.e. if the crabs were already stressed and started to drink a lot of salt water to kick start the moulting process and then perished - it would appear to be the salt water factor and not the other factors (poor humidity, substrate, heating, diet, environment).

I personally kept the salt water pond in the tank all week and know many others that have done so but with everything in crabbing there are different strokes for different folks.

Just my two cents worth,

Vanessa

tigermoon89 · Post by **tigermoon89** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:41 am

I found a thread on hermitcrabparadise.com that has a ton of information pertaining to this debate.

How do I get the info here without trolling or stepping on toes for plagiarism? It's a really lengthy debate...

tnt4eva · Post by **tnt4eva** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:10 am

Providing a link along with the information would seem to comply with their TOS/rules but you might want to verify with the site owner as they are quite strict regarding things concerning other forums.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:36 am

Hi!

Back from my holiday. So sorry to have sent you on a bit of a goose chase Crystal! I was writing in a bit of a hurry as I was supposed to be packing and my partner thought I was finishing off some work stuff!!

I also read the hermitcrabparadise.com forum debate which as I found as I was googling some terms in relation to this debate. That is when I was reminded of Vanessa as I had already visited her site. Sorry I got my wires crossed about Hermit Crab Patch, Hermit Crab paradise and the Crab Journal.

Anyway I am very glad you got hold of her, I don't think there is anyone else around with as much experience with the Aussies as her.

Will be interesting to see if there are any other responses.

In regards to how long we have had each individual hermies are: The longest in my care is Sleepyhead, who was my first Hermie. I brought him as a teenie 10 months ago. He has successfully moulted at least twice, maybe three times.

cheers Jennie

tigermoon89 · Post by **tigermoon89** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:57 am

As a note- I have not provided the link to the thread at the crab paradise forum as it requires membership to be viewed. Providing the thread is then considered trolling. If the mods approve- I will provide the thread.

Basically what I have gathered from the other thread is this:
-We are running in circles without any documented and published research.

-Each method has worked for extended periods of time.
-A Necropsy must be done to determine if salt water was the cause of death and must be documented and published
-Kgbenson covered the shell water salinity test on both threads (no results in that thread)
-It has been suggested on both the HCA and the crab paradise that the Aussies must be monitored when changing their diet to what was not given to them previously. Ie: if salt water deprived= will potentially gorge on salt water

-If changing from the 1x a week salt water rule, gradually over time do so. This way, the hermit crab has time to adjust.

So basically, these are the points that both sites have shared in common and been covered. Our thread is almost identical but some great points are made on theirs that are not covered here. However, the thread basically agreed that without documented research, we will get no where.

Also, both threads agree that roughly at least 15-30+ (varies) years of testing must be done. The results must be peer reviewed by other scientists and then the research published. This is sound evidence to base future arguments off of.

Care sheet:
Honestly, I have to say that I agree, without published research that has been peer reviewed by other scientists we are without hard core concrete evidence to base any decision off of. Both methods have worked with varying results. A necropsy needs to be done to determine the cause of death(s) and potentially rule out the salt water gorging myth when an Aussie is suspected of dying from such.
What I am getting at is this: we can't rule out one or the other. It is up to the crabber and what the crabber feels is healthiest for their crabs. We can at this point based on the experiences of both the 1x a week group and the 24/7 access group, inform the crabber(s) of both sides to the argument and the potential benefits of both.

Without published evidence, I do not feel that it is wise to only advise of one side in the care sheets. For this reason at this time, until there is further evidence that has been published- the care sheets will reflect this debate and the advice to monitor each Aussie as it is introduced to the salt water over a period of time. edit: (links to this thread will be provided).
To Clarify:
if the Aussie came from a store that only offered 1x a week, then if the crabber feels they need 24/7 access, they will be advised to increase the amount of salt water exposure over time so that the Aussie can adjust to the change in diet more easily and reduce the possibility of potential gorging.

Also, I am still waiting to hear back from Bob at ELHC and Merv. (We already have Vanessa's response, however, if she can share, we would need to compare her records to that of Bob and Merv's). If they can share documented research of theirs, we will be able to come closer to reaching a conclusion on the potential myth.

tigermoon89 · Post by **tigermoon89** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:09 am

Back from my holiday. So sorry to have sent you on a bit of a goose chase Crystal! I was writing in a bit of a hurry as I was supposed to be packing and my partner thought I was finishing off some work stuff!!

I also read the hermitcrabparadise.com forum debate which as I found as I was googling some terms in relation to this debate. That is when I was reminded of Vanessa as I had already visited her site. Sorry I got my wires crossed about Hermit Crab Patch, Hermit Crab paradise and the Crab Journal.

No worries Jennie! Hope you enjoyed your holiday!

Marina · Post by **Marina** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:25 am

Since this is a 'myth' to some of us and a fact to others, perhaps you should post a link to this thread in the Aussie caresheet and acknowledge that the reader of the caresheet should form his/her own opinion after reading the posts. With both sides of the argument believing they're right, posting one or the other in the caresheet is an unfair bias.

tigermoon89 · Post by **tigermoon89** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:32 pm

That is what I am going to do.

tigermoon89 · Post by **tigermoon89** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:49 pm

I'm still working on the wording but this is what I have so far:

Water:
Needs access to both dechlorinated fresh and marine grade salt water. They need to be able to fully submerge themselves in both.

It has been said that Aussies are salt water gorgers, because of this it has been recommended to only offer salt water once a week. However, other Aussie crabbers have had the opposite experience with providing 24/7 access. Research is currently being done to determine if this is a myth or fact.

For debate on the salt water issue visit:
viewtopic.php?t=77743&highlight=variabilis
and
viewtopic.php?t=74726&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

If you feel that is healthiest to offer 24/7 access of salt water to your Aussies, it is recommended to gradually introduce them over time to the full access so that the Aussie can adjust to the change in diet more easily.